From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V3 #20 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, October 4 2000 Volume 03 : Number 020 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors KWHS? was: RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors [scribes]: Re: Breaking Heraldic News... RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:23:39 -0600 From: "Edgar, Terry" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Hello all, the discussion I am reading about "white work" and "white vine" has me confused. I, being relatively new at this, didn't know there was a difference. Could some of you more learned gentles post some scanned pictures of each so I may get a better handle on what the difference is? Thanks Rivka de Rojo - -----Original Message----- From: Helen Schultz [mailto:meistern@netusa1.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:56 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors OK, now I, too, am confused. I thought the original question was for WHITEWORK and not WHITE VINE. But, if talking of white vine work, then let me mention a 15th century manuscript with white vine illumination that I personally viewed at The Newberry Library (Chicago) this past weekend -- anyone with the desire and interest can view real manuscripts at this Library (just ask Corinne... I took her there this weekend with me ). The only gilding on the page was some decorative bars going the length of the border. The dots inside the colored sections were actually yellow paint (similar to a canary yellow) in the green and red portions, and white in the blue ones. The green was a very strong green, not minty like Mistletoe is. The red was also strong, with a goodly touch of blue in it, like Permanent Red (which sadly is actually one of the colors that white will literally "sink" into). The blue was nearly Ultramarine. In this particular manuscript, the vines were outlined in what looked like sepia -- or perhaps walnut ink, as the calligraphy also looked to have been originally brown rather than faded black. Some of the dots in the colors were blackened on top of them... perhaps from the motion of the pages. Another wonderful source for white vine work is a book I purchased years ago called: "Pliny the Elder, Historia Naturalis," published under the venue of the Victoria & Albert Museum. It is by Joyce Irene Whalley, and the ISBN is: 0-905209-21-4. This book was originally published in 1982, so I am assuming it is out-of-print. It is full of historiated white vine capitals!! < Boy, I'd love to see the original manuscript, as the author does only the capitals with only a small portion of the borders connected -- sigh -- besides the fact I would love to see a full translation of it, as Pliny had some really "strange" and fun ideas>. I hope this helps anyone else who is doing white vine. By the way, there is only the slightest suggestion of a light brown wash as "shading" on one of the edges of the vines in the Pliny book. I don't recall if this was present in the book I viewed at The Newberry. The putti in the Newberry manuscript were heavily shaded with brown, however. KHvS =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:26:41 -0600 From: "Edgar, Terry" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Might I suggest also for new scribes that they also purchase a bottle of gum arabic, and a bottle of ox gall liquid. Mix a little of both in your paint and you get smooth flowing and wonderful coverage without streaks. Rivka - -----Original Message----- From: Sally Burnell [mailto:sburnell@raex.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 8:28 PM To: cindy@Harvestmaster.com; scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors > Good Gentles, > Please excuse a question from a very new to the art lurker. What > in the name of all that is glorious is W&N? A brand I assume. > What brand would that be? > My thanks in advance, as I am still looking to buy my first colors. That would be Windsor and Newton. They make various and sundry art supplies, like inks, brushes, paints, etc. that can be found at most good art stores. A lot of us scribes use their materials. I use my Windsor and Newton Sceptre Gold series brushes to do illumination, which are a sable/synthetic blend and work fine for me for the money. If you really want to go "whole hog", you can buy the Windsor and Newton pure sable "Series 7" brushes, that at my local art store run about $20 a piece. Too rich for my blood! Paint-wise, I use W&N Ultramarine blue, W&N Alizarin Crimson (although their Cadmium reds are really nice, but expensive!), Mistletoe Green, and Permanent White, the best stuff to do whitework with. I once made the mistake of rushing out and buying a tube of Zinc white - big mistake. Great for shading, lousy for whitework. It's just too weak and milky of a white to do much good for whitework. I'm *still* looking for a decent gold ink or paint to use in lieu of actual gold leafing. Too often, I just don't have the time to do full-fledged leafing work, and I have yet to find a satisfactory good gold. Currently I am using Windsor and Newton gold ink, but its biggest drawback is in how grainy a finish you get. That is one thing I really don't care for about that particular gold. Too many of the gold inks and paints that I have seen are too bronzey in colour, and I am looking for something with closer to an actual real gold colour finish without the graininess of W&N ink. If anyone has any suggestions to offer, I'd be more than happy to hear of them! Saradwen "old timer" Midrealm scribe! =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:50:37 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Rivka: Sorry for the confusion factor. And, I went back and looked at the original request this morning (I got confused as the original was at work and I answered last night from home), and it was for white work not white vine. But, it did spark some great interactions . WHITE WORK is white fine-line decoration on top of the painted areas of illuminations. Most recognizable forms are from France, but it was done throughout all of Europe during the late 13th to the 16th centuries in varying ways. WHITE VINE is a late 15th century style of illumination that was mostly used in Italy (Florence in particular) that has thick "white" vines entertwined in an intricate manner. By the way, the vines were NOT painted in, they were just outlined and delineated with some details. I will post a couple examples on my web page later tonight (I'm currently at work, and have a shire meeting this evening). http://www.netusa1.net/~meistern Look under Scribe's List Examples. KHvS - ----- Original Message ----- > Hello all, > > the discussion I am reading about "white work" and "white vine" has me > confused. I, being relatively new at this, didn't know there was a > difference. Could some of you more learned gentles post some scanned > pictures of each so I may get a better handle on what the difference is? > > Thanks > > Rivka de Rojo =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:49:23 -0600 From: "UnruhBays, Melanie A" Subject: KWHS? was: RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors > PS don't forget to volunteer to teach a class at KWHS in June > of 2001, many > more spots still available. Thanks! I must have missed this - would the people in the know please post the date and location for KWHS 2001? Thanks! Maredudd =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:34:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Hrefna in heppna Subject: [scribes]: Re: Breaking Heraldic News... From the Silver Buccle Herald of AEthelmearc - --- Heim Middle School wrote: > Good Colleagues: > > The Laurel Queen of Arms has announced that the > Knowne World Heraldic > Symposium 2001 will take place from June 1-3 in the > Barony of Nordskogen > (Blomington, Minnesota), which is in the > Principality of Northshield, in > the Midrealm. The site is the DoubleTree Grand > Hotel. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:10:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Eloise Beltz-Decker Subject: RE: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Examples of whitework (i.e. the bar-and-ivy related one) from the web: The middle two in this picture: http://www.niagara.com/~barons/Signet/Gallery/tzitzakion1.jpg The stuff on the D and the lady's dress on the right: http://www.niagara.com/~barons/Signet/Gallery/tzitzakion2.jpg Examples of white vine (i.e. the Italian, later-period one) from the web: http://www.renaissance-artist.com/whitevine.JPG http://libweb.uoregon.edu/speccoll/mss/burgess/ms12e.htm Eloise the Helpful of Tree-Girt-Sea, in the Midrealm, after a quick websearch. - -- Eloise Beltz-Decker eloise@ripco.com http://pages.ripco.com/~eloise/ I'm depressive by nature, but a Pollyanna by choice. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V3 #20 ****************************