From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V3 #19 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, October 4 2000 Volume 03 : Number 019 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors [scribes]: Brown ink ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:28:22 -0600 From: "Cindy Croy" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Good Gentles, Please excuse a question from a very new to the art lurker. What in the name of all that is glorious is W&N? A brand I assume. What brand would that be? My thanks in advance, as I am still looking to buy my first colors. Ohhhh, while I'm writing, if I am COMPLETELY new to illumination and all things thus artistic (I'm just now getting the hang of my first hand, Carolignian Mmm(umble mumble)-scule) I am considering doing a scroll/manuscript type page of scripture for my Mother for Christmas. I want to do the first letter in Gold, what is the simplest way (read: least artistically demanding) to do that? A paint? what kind? Any and all suggestions will be accept with a great deal of gratitude. - -Aelia the Lost Newest scribe-aspirant of Cote-du-Ciel On 3 Oct 00, at 15:52, Helen Schultz wrote: - -snip > I forgot to mention that you should be using W&N Permanent White or Titanium - -snip There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:12:39 -1000 From: "Dubheasa" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors W&N stands for Windsor & Newton. Yes it is a brand name. I think the easiest way to place gold on the scroll is by using a gold gouche. (I'm still learning myself!) Dubheasa hEalaighthe Western Seas, Caid - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croy" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors > Good Gentles, > Please excuse a question from a very new to the art lurker. What > in the name of all that is glorious is W&N? A brand I assume. > What brand would that be? > My thanks in advance, as I am still looking to buy my first colors. > > Ohhhh, while I'm writing, if I am COMPLETELY new to illumination > and all things thus artistic (I'm just now getting the hang of my first > hand, Carolignian Mmm(umble mumble)-scule) I am considering > doing a scroll/manuscript type page of scripture for my Mother for > Christmas. I want to do the first letter in Gold, what is the simplest > way (read: least artistically demanding) to do that? A paint? what > kind? Any and all suggestions will be accept with a great deal of > gratitude. > > -Aelia the Lost > Newest scribe-aspirant of Cote-du-Ciel > > On 3 Oct 00, at 15:52, Helen Schultz wrote: > -snip > > I forgot to mention that you should be using W&N Permanent White or Titanium > -snip > > There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:15:13 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors >>Please excuse a question from a very new to the art lurker. What in the name of all that is glorious is W&N? A brand I assume. What brand would that be? << W&N = Winsor & Newton. Maker of watercolors, gouache, oils, inks, etc. Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:28:00 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors > Good Gentles, > Please excuse a question from a very new to the art lurker. What > in the name of all that is glorious is W&N? A brand I assume. > What brand would that be? > My thanks in advance, as I am still looking to buy my first colors. That would be Windsor and Newton. They make various and sundry art supplies, like inks, brushes, paints, etc. that can be found at most good art stores. A lot of us scribes use their materials. I use my Windsor and Newton Sceptre Gold series brushes to do illumination, which are a sable/synthetic blend and work fine for me for the money. If you really want to go "whole hog", you can buy the Windsor and Newton pure sable "Series 7" brushes, that at my local art store run about $20 a piece. Too rich for my blood! Paint-wise, I use W&N Ultramarine blue, W&N Alizarin Crimson (although their Cadmium reds are really nice, but expensive!), Mistletoe Green, and Permanent White, the best stuff to do whitework with. I once made the mistake of rushing out and buying a tube of Zinc white - big mistake. Great for shading, lousy for whitework. It's just too weak and milky of a white to do much good for whitework. I'm *still* looking for a decent gold ink or paint to use in lieu of actual gold leafing. Too often, I just don't have the time to do full-fledged leafing work, and I have yet to find a satisfactory good gold. Currently I am using Windsor and Newton gold ink, but its biggest drawback is in how grainy a finish you get. That is one thing I really don't care for about that particular gold. Too many of the gold inks and paints that I have seen are too bronzey in colour, and I am looking for something with closer to an actual real gold colour finish without the graininess of W&N ink. If anyone has any suggestions to offer, I'd be more than happy to hear of them! Saradwen "old timer" Midrealm scribe! =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:21:27 -0500 From: Garret Bitker Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors Greetings Fellow Scribes (and interested others) At 10:40 AM 10/3/00 -0700, Tetchubah of Greenlake wrote: >*Black for the outline (usually just india ink) - I have a problem with the >use of sepia tones in these examples since I think most of the real ones >were done as black as possible, and they've simply faded over the years (or >were just too weak to being with) O.k. here I don't quite agree with you, what examples can you site me that prove that manuscript colors etc... have faded, I know many examples of blacks that remain true and very black, especially any carbon based blacks. On the other hand I think the color in whitevine was actually accomplished by using oak-gall ink and that can fade and can look sepia in color depending on how it was made in the first place. So if you have evidence that that this color was once a pigment black I would love to hear it, so I can try to figure out what it was they used. Herr Gevehard von Baden, pigment geek Northshield PS don't forget to volunteer to teach a class at KWHS in June of 2001, many more spots still available. Thanks! =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 22:30:03 -0500 From: David Nolan Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors I am seeing a confusion here...I assume you are talking about the Italian white vine, and not the bar and ivy style which uses white highlights, also called whitework? I've done a lot of white vine, and I use either a black or a brown ink, I've seen too many examples of both to assume that the brown is a faded black. I usually shade the vine with yellow ochre, although the suggestion you mention is just as good (maybe better). Often it wasn't shaded at all, but my personal preference is for shading. If you use a brown ink, use the same or similar color for the calligraphy. Ditto for black. I use either W&N Alizarine Rose Madder or Spectrum Red. The ARM is a touch more pinky-purple. I like Cobalt Blue, but Ultamarine is also good, and closer to being period. Add Permanent Green Middle or Deep to the list of good greens. For white, the absolute best, most opaque, and still shadable brand I've found is called Flo-2 by Dr. Ph Martin. They also make Bleedproof White, which is easier to find, and just as opaque, but not mixable. The Flo-2 blows Permanent White away, it's sooo opaque. (IMO) I've only ever found it at Pearl. (Pearlpaint.com, I think) and you'd have to actually call them and request it because it's not listed in their catalog or website. For the gold dots, (which are most commonly used for the green, although I have seen white, and what could be yellow) , I use Schmincke gold water- color (Paper&Ink) but W&N gold gouache would be fine. For the bars and initial I use the same, when I am rushed for time. At this point, I could launch into a lengthy discourse about gilding techniques and sizes, but I'll save that for a time when my three year old isn't screaming at me. Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, EK (NH) Uh-oh...now he's quiet--*too* quiet! =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 22:56:04 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors OK, now I, too, am confused. I thought the original question was for WHITEWORK and not WHITE VINE. But, if talking of white vine work, then let me mention a 15th century manuscript with white vine illumination that I personally viewed at The Newberry Library (Chicago) this past weekend -- anyone with the desire and interest can view real manuscripts at this Library (just ask Corinne... I took her there this weekend with me ). The only gilding on the page was some decorative bars going the length of the border. The dots inside the colored sections were actually yellow paint (similar to a canary yellow) in the green and red portions, and white in the blue ones. The green was a very strong green, not minty like Mistletoe is. The red was also strong, with a goodly touch of blue in it, like Permanent Red (which sadly is actually one of the colors that white will literally "sink" into). The blue was nearly Ultramarine. In this particular manuscript, the vines were outlined in what looked like sepia -- or perhaps walnut ink, as the calligraphy also looked to have been originally brown rather than faded black. Some of the dots in the colors were blackened on top of them... perhaps from the motion of the pages. Another wonderful source for white vine work is a book I purchased years ago called: "Pliny the Elder, Historia Naturalis," published under the venue of the Victoria & Albert Museum. It is by Joyce Irene Whalley, and the ISBN is: 0-905209-21-4. This book was originally published in 1982, so I am assuming it is out-of-print. It is full of historiated white vine capitals!! < Boy, I'd love to see the original manuscript, as the author does only the capitals with only a small portion of the borders connected -- sigh -- besides the fact I would love to see a full translation of it, as Pliny had some really "strange" and fun ideas>. I hope this helps anyone else who is doing white vine. By the way, there is only the slightest suggestion of a light brown wash as "shading" on one of the edges of the vines in the Pliny book. I don't recall if this was present in the book I viewed at The Newberry. The putti in the Newberry manuscript were heavily shaded with brown, however. KHvS =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 00:39:33 +0000 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Brown ink Hey folks, there are tons and tons of examples of brown ink in medieval MSS from all over and all whenevers. The browns exist side by side with blacks. Clearly, that makes them different colors. Carbon doesn't fade.Sap green, saffron, they fade, and yet there are SO MANY examples of sap green and saffron in manuscripts. Consider that maybe they just wanted it to be the brown ink. RanthulfR Garret Bitker wrote: > > Greetings Fellow Scribes (and interested others) > > At 10:40 AM 10/3/00 -0700, Tetchubah of Greenlake wrote: > >*Black for the outline (usually just india ink) - I have a problem with the > >use of sepia tones in these examples since I think most of the real ones > >were done as black as possible, and they've simply faded over the years (or > >were just too weak to being with) > O.k. here I don't quite agree with you, what examples can you site me that > prove that manuscript colors etc... have faded, I know many examples of > blacks that remain true and very black, especially any carbon based blacks. > On the other hand I think the color in whitevine was actually accomplished > by using oak-gall ink and that can fade and can look sepia in color > depending on how it was made in the first place. So if you have evidence > that that this color was once a pigment black I would love to hear it, so I > can try to figure out what it was they used. > > Herr Gevehard von Baden, > pigment geek > Northshield > PS don't forget to volunteer to teach a class at KWHS in June of 2001, many > more spots still available. Thanks! - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V3 #19 ****************************