From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1749 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Sunday, July 30 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1749 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: PDF Re: [scribes]: PDF Re: [scribes]: Knotwork question Re: [scribes]: PDF [scribes]: PDF vs HTMl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:24:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Eloise Beltz-Decker Subject: Re: [scribes]: PDF On Sat, 29 Jul 2000, John Stracke wrote: > Mike Adams wrote: > > > I wish there was ways to make PDF files > > First question: why? PDF is terrible for textual documents; PDF files > are much, much larger than corresponding HTML files. > > If you want to send scanned scrolls around, then just send GIFs. Just a nitpick - JPGs. GIFs are (a) owned by a company which has been known to try to sue people for using them, and (b) wayyyy bigger than a JPG of even 75% compression. Or PNGs, but those are less widely supported now. - -- Eloise Beltz-Decker eloise@ripco.com http://pages.ripco.com/~eloise/ If I was the moon, I'd feel bad. We never write. We never call. And we certainly don't come for a visit anymore. - James Lileks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 21:26:52 -0400 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: PDF Eloise Beltz-Decker wrote: > Just a nitpick - JPGs. GIFs are (a) owned by a company which has > been known to try to sue people for using them, and (b) wayyyy bigger > than a JPG of even 75% compression. True. I spoke without thinking. - -- /=========================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |HTML OK | |Francois Thibault |====================================| |East Kingdom |A computer without Windows is like a| |francis@thibault.org|chocolate cake without mustard. | \=========================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:54:37 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: Knotwork question I would be careful about dealing with some of the 'common mistakes' that others have posted. Although they apply to one or another of the commonly used period sources, most of the those 'mistakes' are correct for other sources that used knotwork. My guidance to beginners would be to take a careful look at models and not stop with the basic how-to of classwork. Some examples to clarify: - --Knotwork was not always even in width; it was sometimes narrowed to continue a pattern in a shape of changing size, such as a capitol letter. Or wide knotwork might be mixed with (usually but not always) narrow strands that filled in space laft by wider strands. This is especially common in the Book of Kells. - --In the Book of Durrow, the knowtwork often filled pretty much all of the available space, at least for large sections, especially with the more spiral-like forms, and space that was left open, especially 'inside' a knot, was often filled with geometric patterns rather than a plain background . - --Most celtic applications of knotwork had a set border that the knotwork didn't cross, although inner boundaries formed by animals and letters might be crossed by knotwork. However, when knotowrk style designs were used as an early vine form on the continent, they often strayed outside the capitols they filled, as they did when knotwork patterns were incorporated into later period illumination. - --the 'unpainted edge' sometime appears to have been drawn in, with the paint filing the inner part of the knot up to the drawn edge, and is not evident on narrow strands that are mixed among larger strands, although the larger strands have it. I think the real most common mistake of beginners is to take the basic methods they learn in class as the be-all and end-all of designing knotwork and putting it on scrolls. They don't treat it as the starting point that it is, don't really look at period models, don't see how it is used in period borders and other illuminations. For a beginner class, I would recommend encouraging relatively wide lines and even, rounded curves. For a second, or longer class, I would address the 'unpainted edge' -- I actually sometimes paint it in, in off white to make it even, if I don't want to draw the extra lines -- and perhaps discuss how to use wide and narrow knotwork together, or show how knotwork can be adjusted to fit into non-rectangular shapes. Well, that's my take on the subject. Hope it helps Enid Atlantia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 01:14:17 -0300 From: "Rick Gaigneur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: PDF Greetings! Francois wrote: > First question: why? PDF is terrible for textual documents; PDF files > are much, much larger than corresponding HTML files. PDF files are terrible for textual documents? I must disagree. There are some things PDF files were intended to do, and some they were not. You are right, a PDF file would be a lousy way to post a picture of a scroll. A graphic file of the scroll would be just fine. And if you have essentially unformatted text to post to the web, then HTML is just fine. That was never what PDF files were intended for. PDF files were intended for formatted documents, where you want the text and graphics to look the same no matter where it is viewed or where or on what it is printed, regardless of platform, brand of computer or printer, or fonts that are available to the viewer. So, look carefully at the text you want to distribute. If you want the formatting to be consistant on everybody's computer and printer, use PDF. Otherwise, HTML does the job much better. Really, PDF is primarily intended for the electronic distribution of documents like magazines, brochures, manuals, etc. - things that you want the downloaded copy to look just like the ones you had printed yourself, regardless of who prints it. (I think the scribal manuals that led to this discussion are a good example of that). The best solution is probably to do an HTML version for online viewing, with a link to a PDF for a printable version. Aetheric (who firmly believes that PDF was one of the most important breakthroughs on the web, but who also agrees that a lot of the PDF files out there weren't the type of documents that needed to be PDF's) Shire of Lyndhaven, East Kingdom gaigneur@fundy.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:46:04 -0800 From: Mike Adams Subject: [scribes]: PDF vs HTMl I will agree, I have seen some HTML that look wrong when you print them out, but PDF so far all look the same as on screen.. Even if on screen it is smaller. I just wish there was more ways than having to buy either Adobe pagemaker or ... or have Adobe convert it for you.. Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! 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