From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1739 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, July 26 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1739 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic Re: [scribes]: Beowulf Font? Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler, a little speculation. Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler [scribes]: Bone, Antler, Ivory and Horn Re: [scribes]: Bone, Antler, Ivory and Horn (Fwd) Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler [scribes]: Tabards and things. Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic [scribes]: Scribes meeting at pennsic [scribes]: Ink well wick RE: [scribes]: RE: kids and calligraphy Re: [scribes]: Ink well wick Re: [scribes]: Scribes meeting at pennsic Re: [scribes]: kids and calligraphy Re: [scribes]: Scribes meeting at pennsic Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler Re: [scribes]: Ink well wick ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:07:36 EDT From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic In a message dated 7/25/00 10:26:44 PM, abrigon@yahoo.com writes: << Is there not a taberd or like that scribes can wear? or some device or badge? Like a quill pen or like? I once had one I found, but it would be to small for the purpose of this idea, but .. >> I guess I'm dense -- why would we need a tabard or device to wear? I figure anyone who shows up at the designated meeting place at the designated meeting time is likely to be a scribe. A nametag sounds eminently useful. A scribal identifier for the people at the gathering sounds redundant. ("I see by your badge that you are a scribe -- you can see by my badge that I am a scribe, too.... ") If a scribal identifier is needed, anyone from Caid could wear a large red seal (that's zalophus californianus, not wax) maintaining a dripping embattled quill, as that is the badge of the scribes. Or just an embattled quill -- the other Caidan badge for scribes. But I am still puzzled as why we would need to identify someone as a scribe, at a scribal gathering? Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid, -- going to my second Pennsic this year. The last one was in '87. I suspect it has changed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:14:30 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Beowulf Font? Thanks for sending the image. Is there a way to convert the graphic into a font for the computer? Did you calligraph this yourself? RanthulfR Mike Adams wrote: > > See attachment, it has the basic letters and all, I have the original > font here.. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > [Image] - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:49:02 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic Eowyn... thank you for echoing my remarks... we just need a way to put names to faces... we will all KNOW we are scribes!!! Or even, scribes in training. Yes, Pennsic has changed a little bit since you last attended... it is much larger (like 3X larger), sometimes more organized (pre-registration, block assignment rather than grab what you can, etc.), and many more classes than ever before (more than you can possibly take in any one day or at any given hour). Can you say 10,000+ people?? I look forward to meeting you at the Gathering!! Hope you don't have too large a culture shock when you get there . KHvS - ----- Original Message ----- > I guess I'm dense -- why would we need a tabard or device to wear? I figure > anyone who shows up at the designated meeting place at the designated meeting > time is likely to be a scribe. A nametag sounds eminently useful. A scribal > identifier for the people at the gathering sounds redundant. ("I see by your > badge that you are a scribe -- you can see by my badge that I am a scribe, > too.... ") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:40:47 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler Greetings! > I do wish I could translate from the original source myself; I'd be curious > to know if there was another word that could have been equally fitting, > rather than "cotton." Of course, Thompson is an excellent translator, one > you can really trust, but I'd still like to see. ;-) I'd also be curious to > find out whether we are talking about a wad of cotton cloth or a puff of > unprocessed cotton. Well, I guess I'll just have to add trade routes, > typical goods, and agriculture to the things I've studied as a result of my > scribal endeavours. Just as soon as I get back from Pennsic. Just as a little note on this: I've heard (probably from the historic costume list) that "cotton" in period may have meant "cotton wool", that is, unspun wool (depending on the context). Like cotton balls, only wooly bits. Perhaps it's a little bit of coarse, unspun wool that is stuck in the inkwell and saturated? I don't know how well it would hold ink, though... maybe it was fulled a little to be more absorbent. My two pennies, - --Muireann Ponte Alto, Atlantia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:43:13 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler, a little speculation. Greetings again! > Loading at the top hollow of the pen is pretty useless without the capillary > action of the split to pull the ink down. While I can't recall exactly when > the split came into general use, I do know that there are archeological > finds of bone pens without split nibs--which, I must point out, may also > have been holders for weakened quills, a theory I can understand but > disagree with; quills are easy to come by--anyway, the existence of pens > without split nibs suggests that it would be very important to quickly and > fairly concisely control the amount of ink forming at the bottom of the nib, > at the writing surface. > > You can find some bone pen info in MacGregor's "Bone, Antler, and Ivory," if > I've remembered the title aright. It is called "Bone, Antler, Ivory and Horn" by Arthur MacGregor. It is out of print and *extremely* hard to find. I've been looking for a copy for well over two years. =( Guess I'll have to ILL it or go back to the Library of Congress. I'm now curious about bone pens! I don't recall seeing anything about that, but it's been a while since I had my hands on a copy of the book and only have a partial photocopy. *sigh* - --Muireann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:48:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Eloise Beltz-Decker Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Randy Asplund wrote: > Wow! Now that's what I call "pu;;ing a rabbit out of your hat"! Way to spot > the details Merouda! I had forgotten all about that. > > Cool, so we have cotton of some type documented to Italy around 1400 AD for > use in inkwells. Just as a caveat (from the fiber geek), 'cotton' did not always imply fiber from that particular plant with the fuzzy bolls, esp. earlier in period. Yes, 'cotton fabric' as we know it today did exist, esp. in Italy and the trade centers, but 'cotton' was also used in several unspecified ways to mean several unspecified things. 'Wool cotton', for example, shows up as a fabric used in garments that were listed in some inventories in the late 1300s in France. Eloise the Detail-Oriented of Tree-Girt-Sea in the Middle. - -- Eloise Beltz-Decker eloise@ripco.com http://pages.ripco.com/~eloise/ If I was the moon, I'd feel bad. We never write. We never call. And we certainly don't come for a visit anymore. - James Lileks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:55:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Eloise Beltz-Decker Subject: [scribes]: Bone, Antler, Ivory and Horn I found two copies on Bookfinder, if anyone's interested - one for $34.11 from Oxbow Books (who doesn't, I think, offer many one-off useds, so they may have more at that price) and one for $41.00 from David Brown Books (which, oddly enough, is Oxbow's US distributor). Try http://www.oxbowbooks.com/ - -- Eloise Beltz-Decker eloise@ripco.com http://pages.ripco.com/~eloise/ If I was the moon, I'd feel bad. We never write. We never call. And we certainly don't come for a visit anymore. - James Lileks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:08:58 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Bone, Antler, Ivory and Horn Oh, I am there! I am SO there! I'm all over it!! Sorry... got a little excited there for a second. ;-) - --Muireann > I found two copies on Bookfinder, if anyone's interested - one > for $34.11 from Oxbow Books (who doesn't, I think, offer many one-off > useds, so they may have more at that price) and one for $41.00 from David > Brown Books (which, oddly enough, is Oxbow's US distributor). > > Try http://www.oxbowbooks.com/ > > -- > Eloise Beltz-Decker eloise@ripco.com > http://pages.ripco.com/~eloise/ > If I was the moon, I'd feel bad. We never write. We never call. > And we certainly don't come for a visit anymore. - James Lileks > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:12:02 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: (Fwd) Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler - ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Fitchybear1@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:12:27 EDT Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler To: jessica@pop.net In a message dated 7/26/00 9:46:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jessica@pop.net writes: << Like cotton balls, only wooly bits. Perhaps it's a little bit of coarse, unspun wool that is stuck in the inkwell and saturated? I don't know how well it would hold ink, though... maybe it was fulled a little to be more absorbent. >> I would tend to agree with this....Egyptian cotton was quite pricey during our period, so I don't really think a lowly scribe :P would have much contact with it-JimBear - ------- End of forwarded message ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 05:58:48 -0800 From: Mike Adams Subject: [scribes]: Tabards and things. Well, I think some form of large enough to be seen, but not so large and expensive to be a pain would be an idea for iding of people, I know many people use visual clues to I/D people.. Well, work on the name memory, I am working on it, but I know it is not easy. Well, enough said. Now back to Scribal arts and like.. Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:45:05 -0400 From: "Jennifer" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic >I guess I'm dense -- why would we need a tabard or device to wear? I figure >But I am still puzzled as why we would need to identify someone as a scribe, >at a scribal gathering? > >Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid, I agree. I think just name tags of any kind are sufficient. No need for them all to be the same either. If some folks wish to do up a fancy one for War, go ahead. Those who don't have time can get a sticky one made up at the Scribe's meeting. Sounds simple enough to me. Genevieve Ealdormere ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 06:44:04 -0800 From: Mike Adams Subject: [scribes]: Scribes meeting at pennsic Pensic, hum, I wonder if it was not founded by a Scribe (Grin). I like how Mistress Corinna of the Silver Scissors thinks.. I will not be able to attend so it is up to those who are attending, but I do like how Heralds do it, but maybe some possible period ideas.. I know crossed quills sounds/looks good, but I know some form of showing local alliengence could be fun to add? Tabard with maybe 1/2 cross quills, and the other 1/2 the local alliengence (barony/etc). Or maybe their local device, but with an eschesteon to show their rank, such as crossed quills? Or maybe just everyone show up with a set colored sash (unless it is preprietory to a Kingdom or like for their peerage or like).. Maybe with a badge of crossed quills on said sash?? I know we art artists, so .. does it have to be plain? Lord Morgoth POC Scribe Wintersgate I know I should have gone for that PHD in history, but it never meant anything until now. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:38:46 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Ink well wick Well, well, well. Why want which wick? Will wet wool work wonders? Why worry? Who will wrestle with wool while white whispy waddings work well? SCRECH! Ok, enough double Utalk. Who wants to test a wad of cotton with a wad of fulled wool? We might as well find out how both work. Maybe try some moss as well. As for the price, um, cotton may have been a bit more expensive by the bushel, but let's be real. What costs more a feather quill or a metal one? They used both when metal was astronomically more expensive. Just because the price was a little higher doesn't mean it was prohibitive OR not worth the expense. RanthulfR - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:55:44 -0400 From: "Dills,Robert W" Subject: RE: [scribes]: RE: kids and calligraphy In answer to the odd question or 2: "What is Rongo Rongo?" Rongo Rongo is the written form of the natives of Easter Island. It was created in the 1700s. It is the only written form developed in Oceania. Talk about esoteric! Each year the school picks a different area of the world to explore during Arts week. This year they chose Oceania--an I thought South and Central America was dry for a calligrapher. I had the children make up their own symbolic written form. They had to come up with non-rebus symbols that the class (society) could agree meant what the creator said it meant. Great exercise. We all learned more about the evolution of symbolic writing. Bob Dills, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:01:29 -0400 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ink well wick Randy Asplund wrote: > As for the price, um, cotton may have been a bit more expensive by the bushel, > but let's be real. What costs more a feather quill or a metal one? They used > both when metal was astronomically more expensive. Just because the price was > a little higher doesn't mean it was prohibitive OR not worth the expense. True, though there may have been some times and places when cotton just wasn't available (say, because trade had been cut off by a war). - -- /===============================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |HTML OK | |Francois Thibault |==========================================| |East Kingdom |Don't anthropomorphize computers. We don't| |francis@thibault.org|like it. | \===============================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:46:59 -0400 From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes meeting at pennsic Greetings! For us who are slow on the uptake, when and where will the meeting be again? Also, a public service announcement: I'm going to be teaching Palaeography for Scribes on Thursday of the main week, 2-4 pm. I added this class after the online schedule came out, and I may not make it into the Pennsic book, either. I learned palaeography (history of script) while in graduate school at the University of Toronto from Virginia Brown, one of the best, and it's really benefited me as I've pursued calligraphy. There will be big handouts (with a small fee to cover costs); first 15 get 'em and anyone else can sign up to have 'em sent. >Lord Morgoth >POC Scribe Wintersgate >I know I should have gone for that PHD in history, >but it never meant anything until now. Mine is framed on a wall. I work for a bank now. There just ain't a lotta jobs out there in medieval history (at least not ones that pay anything....). So have fun, study hard, and avoid the crushing student debt :-) Nicolaa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:39:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: Re: [scribes]: kids and calligraphy Have done this a couple of years now; give them time to experiment with the pens. Show them the difference (hand over hand if you're dealing with a bout 3rd grade and younger) between thicks and thins, and how to achieve them. I've found demonstrating with the side of a piece of chalk to be useful for this, too. I usually bring a couple of my own pens and nibs for older kids and let them experiment. It's really hard to get much done in a single day's session, though. We did a lot of the practice on graph paper, with final products done on that almost-translucent fake parchment paper. It really satisfies the kids' desire for something "olde tyme" looking in a product. We usually had paints (and examples in books) of illuminated initials if they wanted to try one of those. I let them choose their own subject or poem for the final project. (One year my 3rd and 4th graders did Mother's Day poems this way, and they (and their mothers) really loved the results.) Remember that their standards will not be the same as ours. Are you familiar with "Joust For Fun"? It's a full unit on the Middle Ages, and includes calligraphy in a section on medieval letter-writing. It's a really great book! Graidhne ni Ruaidh BMDL On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Mary Haselbauer wrote: > >The kid's calligraphy book, _Yours Truly King Arthur_ is out of print, > but > >has been modified slightly with new title (can't remember quite what) > but > >is availabe from the Pen & Ink catalogue. > > Does anyone have advice for teaching kids calligraphy. I'm teaching a > summer enrichment class about the Middle Ages. One one day section is > about calligraphy. My first group couldn't get the idea of keeping the > nib flat against the paper. They kept wanting to make thin lines with > the corners. We're using markers because that's what the district > bought. (Plus parents sometimes object to paint on hands, faces, arms, > siblings....) I was their age when I taught myself calligraphy and don't > know how I figured it out. > > Many thanks, > Slaine > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:58:31 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes meeting at pennsic Nicolaa: Here is the basics of the Scribe's Gathering -- The scribe's party this year is scheduled for 4:00 on Monday, August 14, in EK Royal. Please bring your portfolios if you can, so we can drool over each other's work (always the best part of any scribal gathering!). I missed out on most of your class at RUM, I just might try to take it this time... if not, I know where to get in touch with your . KHvS - ----- Original Message ----- > Greetings! > > For us who are slow on the uptake, when and where will the meeting be again? > > Also, a public service announcement: I'm going to be teaching Palaeography > for Scribes on Thursday of the main week, 2-4 pm. I added this class after > the online schedule came out, and I may not make it into the Pennsic book, > either. I learned palaeography (history of script) while in graduate school > at the University of Toronto from Virginia Brown, one of the best, and it's > really benefited me as I've pursued calligraphy. There will be big handouts > (with a small fee to cover costs); first 15 get 'em and anyone else can > sign up to have 'em sent. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:29:51 -0700 From: "corinna taylor/al frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler I don't know about "in period," but in contemporary British usage "cotton wool" is unspun cotton, not bits of wool. Corinna, erstwhile British subject - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jessica Wilbur To: Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler > Greetings! > > > I do wish I could translate from the original source myself; I'd be curious > > to know if there was another word that could have been equally fitting, > > rather than "cotton." Of course, Thompson is an excellent translator, one > > you can really trust, but I'd still like to see. ;-) I'd also be curious to > > find out whether we are talking about a wad of cotton cloth or a puff of > > unprocessed cotton. Well, I guess I'll just have to add trade routes, > > typical goods, and agriculture to the things I've studied as a result of my > > scribal endeavours. Just as soon as I get back from Pennsic. > > Just as a little note on this: I've heard (probably from the historic costume > list) that "cotton" in period may have meant "cotton wool", that is, unspun > wool (depending on the context). Like cotton balls, only wooly bits. Perhaps > it's a little bit of coarse, unspun wool that is stuck in the inkwell and > saturated? I don't know how well it would hold ink, though... maybe it was > fulled a little to be more absorbent. > > My two pennies, > --Muireann > Ponte Alto, Atlantia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:34:19 -0700 From: "corinna taylor/al frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic There's a very good reason for scribal identification signs at Pensic. People who are not scribes or not yet scribes might wish to approach you with questions and/or commissions. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jennifer To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes Gathering at Pennsic > > > >I guess I'm dense -- why would we need a tabard or device to wear? I figure > >But I am still puzzled as why we would need to identify someone as a > scribe, > >at a scribal gathering? > > > >Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid, > > I agree. I think just name tags of any kind are sufficient. No need for them > all to be the same either. If some folks wish to do up a fancy one for War, > go ahead. Those who don't have time can get a sticky one made up at the > Scribe's meeting. > Sounds simple enough to me. > > Genevieve > Ealdormere > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:34:11 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler Hm. Maybe I had it backwards, then. Or maybe the usage changed from period? I don't know... - --Muireann > I don't know about "in period," but in contemporary British usage "cotton > wool" is unspun cotton, not bits of wool. > > Corinna, erstwhile British subject > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jessica Wilbur > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 9:40 AM > Subject: Re: [scribes]: Inkwell filler > > > > Greetings! > > > > > I do wish I could translate from the original source myself; I'd be > curious > > > to know if there was another word that could have been equally fitting, > > > rather than "cotton." Of course, Thompson is an excellent translator, > one > > > you can really trust, but I'd still like to see. ;-) I'd also be curious > to > > > find out whether we are talking about a wad of cotton cloth or a puff of > > > unprocessed cotton. Well, I guess I'll just have to add trade routes, > > > typical goods, and agriculture to the things I've studied as a result of > my > > > scribal endeavours. Just as soon as I get back from Pennsic. > > > > Just as a little note on this: I've heard (probably from the historic > costume > > list) that "cotton" in period may have meant "cotton wool", that is, > unspun > > wool (depending on the context). Like cotton balls, only wooly bits. > Perhaps > > it's a little bit of coarse, unspun wool that is stuck in the inkwell and > > saturated? I don't know how well it would hold ink, though... maybe it was > > fulled a little to be more absorbent. > > > > My two pennies, > > --Muireann > > Ponte Alto, Atlantia > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:37:57 -0700 From: "corinna taylor/al frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ink well wick Cotton works. Synthetic sponge works. Natural sponge works. Marc Drogin says moss and lint were found in inkwells, so I guess they work too. I hope you're not going to wait to try this trick until you can verify precisely what type of cotton might have been used. Just stuff something in the inkwell and try! Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: John Stracke To: Scribes Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ink well wick > Randy Asplund wrote: > > > As for the price, um, cotton may have been a bit more expensive by the bushel, > > but let's be real. What costs more a feather quill or a metal one? They used > > both when metal was astronomically more expensive. Just because the price was > > a little higher doesn't mean it was prohibitive OR not worth the expense. > > True, though there may have been some times and places when cotton just wasn't > available (say, because trade had been cut off by a war). > > -- > /===============================================================\ > |John Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |HTML OK | > |Francois Thibault |==========================================| > |East Kingdom |Don't anthropomorphize computers. We don't| > |francis@thibault.org|like it. | > \===============================================================/ > > > ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1739 ******************************