From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1659 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Sunday, June 25 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1659 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Egg tempera vs. gouache [scribes]: Question about viridian [scribes]: Toxicity warning [scribes]: Tempera truth Re: [scribes]: Egg tempera vs. gouache Re: [scribes]: Toxicity warning Re: [scribes]: Egg tempera vs. gouache ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:30:31 EDT From: Fitchybear1@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Egg tempera vs. gouache In a message dated 6/24/00 10:24:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sburnell@raex.com writes: << Does egg tempera give you a more translucent quality than does gouache? >> Yes it does. Particularly yolk tempera which contains more fat and oils that the white (glair) in many cases, illuminators used a combination of yolk and glair together (I tend to shy away from this and use yolk exclusively) for many of their period pigments...if you don't have it, I'd suggest either "il libero del Arte'" by Cennini translated by Daniel V. Thompson or "Materials and Methods in Medieval Painting" also by DVT....I prefer the latter as it is not Cennini exclusively that Thompson pulls from. Thes e books are available through dover and tun about $7-$10 -JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:46:39 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Question about viridian Fitchybear1@aol.com wrote: > As to toxic pigments...I find that they are very easy to handle > the leads all tend to behave the same comming out of the vial...because of > the weight of lead, they clump into balls and don't atomize. Viridian tends > to atomize more but I simply make a pool of vinegar (white distilled works > best) first and then add the viridian to it...it goes into solution pretty > much upon contact with the vinegar, then add the yolk binder to it at that > point. Orpiment is the scarriest as it is arsenic and if you get some into a > small cut it will fester, so I use gloves with that one... I see you are using mostly period pigments here in dry powder form. I am just curious why you listed Viridian in here since it is not a period pigment. The reason why I ask is to be sure that you are aware that viridian is NOT malachite amd not a period pigment. There was a person selling a stone which she would grind and had mistakenly identified as malachite. She was selling it under the name of viridian. She had both the wrong stone and the wrong name for the pigment made with malachite. It was an honest mistake, but in the meantime a lot of people thought that malachite (a true period pigment) was also called viridian, and that the stone powder she was selling was thus malachite. This mistake was compounded by the fact that the individual selling the stuff really is a very expert pigments person in the SCA and otherwise really knows her stuff. -As I said, an honest mistake. RanthulfR I sometimes use a little dry pigment viridian as well. It does a nice mix with some other colors. RanthulfR - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:56:34 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Toxicity warning I seem to have deleted the post, but someone recently posted that many toxic pigments are only going to affect you if you inhale them, and that eating them was not a danger. With all due respect, I must disagree very strongly and urge all of you to as a rule until you KNOW BETTER to consider all toxic materials to be harmful through ingestion, through rubbing eyes area, through through cuts, etc., as well as through ingestion. Look, only you know how much exposure you are giving yourself. I don't know how often you paint or which toxins you use. My advice to you is to err on the side of safety if you are going to err at all. Do not take the word of ANY person on this list that a pigment is safe or that it is not a risk under some circumstances. Don't even take MY word if I say something like that. Don't take the word that anything is safe unless the lable specifically says it is non-toxic, or you read it somewhere in a toxicity pamphlet that all of the specific chemicals in the pigment- in that combination- are safe. Unless they actually work in the field of toxicology, consider even the best SCA sources as suspect. Many paints you buy today are very safe. However, many are not, and those which are not don't often tell you that. Some of these toxins are minor, and some can do nasty things like parallysis, mental problems, and even death after enough build up. So play it safe, don't presume. RanthulfR - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:41:34 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Tempera truth Hello Saradwen, To start with, the term "egg tempera" is responsible for so much ambiguity and misleads so much that I suggest we just toss it in the trash. It hinders more than it helps. Let's be specific and call egg white "glair", egg yolk just "yolk", and watercolor as "gum" bound paint. Let's also dump the use of gouache for meaning a medieval tempera and just let it mean the opaque stuff we buy today from the tube. Egg Tempera can mean that emulsion of yolk with oil which we DO NOT USE. The translucence in the painting you are seeing should be viewed as extending the paint with more binder, not from thinning it with just more water. The medium used is not the important thing. You can do this with glair, gum, size, or yolk. All you are doing to make it translucent is overbinding the paint with too much binder. That is why it needs to have a SMALL amount of sweetener like powdered sugar or honey added. If you don't sweeten the binder it will be brittle. If you oversweeten it you will get a sticky goo. I suggest you make a test batch of binder, then mix a little color into it and let it dry while you learn the right amounts. The truth about which binder was used "in period" is that in different period different binders were favored. You can't just say that in a span of 1000 years they used one more than the other. Sometimes glair was in favor, sometimes gum "arabic" (gum substitutes were comon). In the renaissance they had it down to such a science that they were using all sorts of things and they had learned which colors bind best in which medium for either translucent or opaque effects. Our modern gouache is essentially watercolor, that is -gum bound pigment- with a little material added for opacity. I'm not sure if it is mica or what, but I am certain it is not white lead. The addition of white lead will definitey make paint more opaque, but it will reduce color saturation so that the color is more "pasty" or "pastel" in appearance. If you want to get a more translucent look to tube paints and you don't want to switch binders from gum based gouache, I suggest you get a set of watercolors to go with the goauches. Also buy a small jar of gum arabic and add a small amount of that to the watercolors after you squeeze them out into a watercolor well. Remember, you should be adding some extra gum to the watercolors anyway if you are using them in a book because watercolors are inherently underbound by the manufacturers. Good luck with it! RanthulfR Sally Burnell wrote: > > You know, I've always wondered when I paint a scroll why, despite my best > efforts, why it *still* doesn't "look right". I use gouache to paint with, > which is very opaque. I look at stuff in the Cleveland Museum of Art and > marvel at how translucent the MSS. are colour-wise. Well, in period, for the > most part, they used egg tempera, not gouache. So my question to you all is > this : Does egg tempera give you a more translucent quality than does > gouache? > > For the most part, I use ultramarine blue and alizarin crimson or cadmium > red pale and cadmium red deep. Sometimes I think my colours look too dark > and that contributes to that feeling of my stuff not "looking right". For > white I use Permanent White, a really nice white gouache. Great stuff for > whitework! I just wonder if I used egg tempera, if somehow my illumination > would look more "right". I don't really want to use those toxics, as I > mentioned in a previous post, and I could probably come by some safer > alternatives to the dangerous stuff. > > Thanks so far for all the great advise, folks! Very much appreciated! I am > most humbled at the incredible array of talent on this list and thank each > and every one of you for so patiently answering all my questions! See, even > an old timer scribe like me is still very much on a learning curve and I > have a ton of stuff yet to learn! > > Thanks again, everybody! > > With sincerest gratitude, > THLady Saradwen Ariandalen > Marche of Gwyntarian > (Akron/Kent, OH) > Midrealm - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:02:24 -0700 From: "corinna taylor/al frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Egg tempera vs. gouache There is also a Dover book - "The Practice of Tempera Painting". It's not medieval but a lot of the techniques are the same. It's also got some useful information on gilding. Corinna, OL - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Egg tempera vs. gouache > In a message dated 6/24/00 10:24:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > sburnell@raex.com writes: > > << Does egg tempera give you a more translucent quality than does > gouache? >> > > Yes it does. Particularly yolk tempera which contains more fat and oils that > the white (glair) in many cases, illuminators used a combination of yolk and > glair together (I tend to shy away from this and use yolk exclusively) for > many of their period pigments...if you don't have it, I'd suggest either "il > libero del Arte'" by Cennini translated by Daniel V. Thompson or "Materials > and Methods in Medieval Painting" also by DVT....I prefer the latter as it is > not Cennini exclusively that Thompson pulls from. Thes e books are available > through dover and tun about $7-$10 -JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:21:19 -0700 From: "corinna taylor/al frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Toxicity warning Hi Randy, That offendingly casual person was me. I wasn't suggesting sitting down to a dinner of cadmium, and I agree that one shouldn't eat or drink near paint. But the amount that might be ingested by accident By an adult isn't so dangerous that people should be unwilling to try these paints. Sometimes they sound terrified that the first accidental drip into their coffee will be fatal. I only meant to give some sense of proportion. It takes years of inhalation to do major damage, and reasonable caution is essential. Just not paranoia. Small children are another matter. Since they might eat gobs of the most unappetizing substances in addition to breathing and touching it, they should be kept far away from almost any paint except for kiddie colours. Will I see you at Chicon? I remember your stunning illumination from a few Windycons ago. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Asplund To: Scribes Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:56 AM Subject: [scribes]: Toxicity warning > I seem to have deleted the post, but someone recently posted that many toxic > pigments are only going to affect you if you inhale them, and that eating them > was not a danger. > > With all due respect, I must disagree very strongly and urge all of you to as > a rule until you KNOW BETTER to consider all toxic materials to be harmful > through ingestion, through rubbing eyes area, through through cuts, etc., as > well as through ingestion. > > Look, only you know how much exposure you are giving yourself. I don't know > how often you paint or which toxins you use. My advice to you is to err on the > side of safety if you are going to err at all. Do not take the word of ANY > person on this list that a pigment is safe or that it is not a risk under some > circumstances. Don't even take MY word if I say something like that. Don't > take the word that anything is safe unless the lable specifically says it is > non-toxic, or you read it somewhere in a toxicity pamphlet that all of the > specific chemicals in the pigment- in that combination- are safe. Unless they > actually work in the field of toxicology, consider even the best SCA sources > as suspect. > > Many paints you buy today are very safe. However, many are not, and those > which are not don't often tell you that. Some of these toxins are minor, and > some can do nasty things like parallysis, mental problems, and even death > after enough build up. So play it safe, don't presume. > > RanthulfR > -- > > Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 > Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration > 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 > > See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts > to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: > http://www.provide.net/~randyaf > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:38:17 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Egg tempera vs. gouache > << Does egg tempera give you a more translucent quality than does > gouache? >> > > Yes it does. Particularly yolk tempera which contains more fat and oils that > the white (glair) in many cases, illuminators used a combination of yolk and > glair together (I tend to shy away from this and use yolk exclusively) for > many of their period pigments...if you don't have it, I'd suggest either "il > libero del Arte'" by Cennini translated by Daniel V. Thompson or "Materials > and Methods in Medieval Painting" also by DVT....I prefer the latter as it is > not Cennini exclusively that Thompson pulls from. Thes e books are available > through dover and tun about $7-$10 -JimBear Oh, yeah, I've got them both! I've read snippets of both of them, but I'll have to take some time to sit down and thoroughly read both of them cover to cover. I also have "On Divers Arts" by Theophilus as well, the Dover edition, which is also nicely inexpensive. All good books for the scribe on a budget! THLady Saradwen Ariandalen whose tiny apartment is crammed to the gills with books! Marche of Gwyntarian (Akron/Kent, OH) Midrealm ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1659 ******************************