From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1609 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Sunday, June 4 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1609 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Marriage contract text question Re: [scribes]: Wedding "contracts" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:06:42 -0500 (CDT) From: hornburg amy lynn Subject: Re: [scribes]: Marriage contract text question Salut! I am new to the list this past week and have not been able to previously introduce myself. Now that a topic has come up that I can claim *some* authority on, I feel the need to introduce myself and stop lurking about. I am the Lady Despina de la Brasov, of the Midlands in the Midrealm (Champaign, IL). Mundanely, I do commissions for ketubot (Jewish marriage contracts) and tikkiun (Jewish engagement contracts) as well as several other Jewish legal and ornamental documents. I did my masters work at the University of Chicago in Jewish Studies with my thesis being, "The development of the Ketubah in twentieth century United States". My doctorate research will be comparing ketubot from various areas of Europe in the time period of 1000 - 1700 to delve into the social and economic aspects of life as seen in such documents. All that said, Jewish wedding and engagement contracts date back almost 2,000 years. The earliest ones found are pre-800. Without such a document, even in modern - not even orthodox - Judaism, one is not married according to Jewish law. There are many wonderful examples of ketubot from the middle ages - mostly Italian, as they tend to be the best preserved and the most ornately decorated (probably part of why families kept them through time). If you wish the text of said document in English, I would be happy to privately mail you a copy of it. As I mentioned earlier, I do these things for people as a source of income, I have to have it correct. As for the obvious question of language - my husband said something about Latin not as a possibility, I contridict him. The Jewish law states that the contract must be written in the legal language (which is Aramaic, not Hebrew) and if the parties being married do not read such, it needs also be in the language that they would understand. Therefore, more in modern times than past, it is written in Aramaic as well as English, or Italian, or German, or Latin (so that it can be presented to the local priest as a God-binding marriage document)or Spanish or Yiddish, or ......you get the point. Let me know if you need the text in English, I would be happy to provide it for you. As for Christian marriage contracts, the pretty embellished ones are knock-offs of the Jewish tradition (sorry, research tells me this, not personal bias) and I have never looked into such documents as legal contracts in other traditions. My understanding is that such things would have been done as a matter of honour, with all parties involved (as well as a few trusted advisors) knowing the stakes of the marriage. In Service to the Dream, Despina de la Brasov ___________________________________ Amy L. H. Heilveil Program Coordinator Local Government Education 905 S. Goodwin, Urbana, IL 61801 Phone: 217/244-3735 Fax: 217/244-7877 e-mail: aheilvei@uiuc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 00:18:00 -0500 From: "Dawn Draheim" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wedding "contracts" Mistress Yseult asked: >Mmmnnn. I think there's a bit of confusion here between the >concept of a wedding *contract* and *settlements*. > >A mariage _contract_ is the document the bride and groom sign, >which essestially say "we agree to be married." The contractual >obligations of marriage are part of the laws of the land -- >but what I *think* the poster is aking about are the _settements_-- >the legal contacts between the two families. Not sure exactly >So -- which of these were you asking about? Thank you, good Mistress, for letting me know that I've been looking for the wrong thing (smiles...I have zero legal background and was simply looking for what I'd been told it was called). I am indeed seeking the "settlements" text, ie. the legal arrangement made between the two families. So as to not take up further bandwidth, I'll also be writing to several of you off-list to follow up on your offers and information. Thank you to everyone who's contributed their thoughts and information; I appreciate it very much! Lasair ni Fhionnualann, OL, OP Barony of the Steppes, Ansteorra dawndra@airmail.net ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1609 ******************************