From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #148 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 02 : Number 148 In this issue: Re: Re: [scribes]: A&S advice Re: [scribes]: Scribes at Pennsic Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf prices Re: [scribes]: A&S advice [scribes]: Color Choices [scribes]: Beans Re: [scribes]: A&S advice Re: [scribes]: neat pens Re: [scribes]: neat pens Re: [scribes]: neat pens Re: [scribes]: A & S advice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:48:51 EDT From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [scribes]: A&S advice In a message dated 7/9/98 8:02:39 AM, Eldred@concentric.net wrote: <> Yep, precisely it. We usually have a Laurel's Prize a couple times a year, well-publicised ahead, and Laurels in particular encouraged to attend. Eowyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:51:01 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribes at Pennsic Elisabeth, I think it is the East Kingdom's prerogative to have the Knowne World Scribe's Party at Pennsic... that is probably the best place for ALL OF US on this list to meet also. I tend to think that we won't find out when it is until Pennsic actually opens. KHvS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:15:33 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf prices >>The best gold prices I've found are at EasyLeaf.com. Their prices beat JohnNealBooks.com and Paper & Ink. EasyLeaf also has the largest selection of gold products, including burnishers, etc. At Tetchubah's house we made gesso and used her French Whiting, aka slaked plaster, which she bought from EasyLeaf, 5 pounds at a time for cheep! (i.e birdseed :-)<< What Thomas said. Unlike a lot of the gold suppliers (who deal primarily with picture framers and therefore prefer wholesale), Easy Leaf is very easy to deal with. They have no minimum order amount (like a lot of others who really deal in bulk) and they accept major credit cards or are willing to do COD if you don't have one. I ordered some stuff from them last week and had it the next day but then I live in the Los Angeles area and they're also here. They normally send stuff UPS so it arrives fast. You might also try Sepp Leaf, which I think is in New York. I know several people on the list use them as well. BTW, Thomas, thanks for asking them about the leaf weights - I'd never thought to ask them about it. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:10:14 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: A&S advice >>What are these Laurel prizes that Eowyn speaks of? I recall our Kingdom Minister of A&S encouraging Laurels to bestow tokens upon those whose works are pleasing / show promise / are excellent / etc. Is this the same thing? I have yet to see a Laurel do this, tho'.<< In Caid the Order of the Laurel runs a "show off your work" display twice a year which we call the Laurel Prize Tourney. It's not really a competition. Whoever choses to enter may, and we can write comments on their displayed items and leave them small tokens (tokens have ranged from chocolates to beads to whatever). As Eowyn says, sometimes when the entrant hangs around it gives us an opportunity to talk with them about their work and learn more about them. There is no "people's choice" award or any grand prize winner. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid (and Secretary for the Order of the Laurel in Caid) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:46:35 -0500 From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Color Choices I have been trying to get back in touch with this list in between deadlines and life itself and have had to skim a lot, but the recent discussion on colors to use has stirred me to comment. I am seeing people suggesting the use of a lot of modern colors which are really not medieval and would necessarily lead to a modern look to the art. This especially comes up when the scribe is trying to paint "realistic" colors. I am not knocking the use of modern pigments per se, but I believe that we have enough scribes with less experience here, who do not know the difference, that we would be doing a disservice to them if we did not tell them that there is a difference. Deciding what colors to use is a personal thing. Early period palettes were much more limited than late period palettes. Researching which exact medieval colors to use often leads to the realization that one just can not get all of the real colors one wants, and thus is stuck with similar, but not exact modern pigments. I suggest that if you need to be accurate, you try to emulate colors seen in manuscripts and cross reference with a list of which colors were invented or came into use at what date. Or, we have had previous discussion on this list concerning which colors go when and where. Did anyone save it to post again? I am really stuck for time for the next couple of weeks and can't afford to go digging. Moving along, here's a tip. Stop thinking about making it look real. Start thinking of medieval art as stylized. Not to the extent of Egyptian wall paintings, but that is the direction. That is why the colors change all the time to completely crazy representations. That is why color and drawing in MSS make sucky references for costumes, etc. It is more like stage design. Even the late period stuff which is pictorially more complete. So if you want to buy colors, check out your friends set first. See what might mix right. You have a lot of choices that you need not do much with to get a period feel. Ultramarine, carbon blacks, Titanium white, red ochre or even indian Red, Cad. yellow medium, indigo, yellow ochre, chromium oxide green, cadmium red medium, alizarune crimson HUE (the real stuff is fugitive), are all reasonable modern colors to yield a medieval look. You can mix browns from red cad red or red ochres and blacks. Fine ground malachite can be imitated by adding some white to viridian, but avoid viridian otherwise. Also, a touch on color nature. Colors are defined by 5 things: 1) HUE-the color range on the color wheel like "yellow", "blue", etc. 2) BRIGHTNESS- how light or dark it is at saturation. Yellow is naturally very bright and purple is naturally very dark. 3) SATURATION- How vibrant the color is. Cadmium yellow lemon and Phthalo blue are very saturate. Yellow ochre and indigo are not very saturate. (However, dont confuse saturation with tinctoral power). 4) Tinctoral Power- is the strength of "staining" a color has over others. Phthalo blue has a color personality which will conquer most other colors, while transparent yellow is a wimp. 5) Transparency/opacity- the covering ability of that color in paint. Phthalo colors are really thin, while cadmiums and Titanium white are really opaque. When you add either white or black to a color, you do a couple of things automatically. The amount of effect is based on proporties from the list above. White or black additions will REDUCE THE SATURATION and lighten or darken accordingly. Reducing saturation will mean a yellow is less yellow, a blue is less blue. It is not JUST lighter or darker. Painting thin color preserves saturation, but reduces opacity and thus degrades the intensity of the appearance. When you add black and white both to a color, you are adding grey. It is possible then to reduce the saturation of the hue without lightening OR darkening, but the color effect will be very neutral. Remember, each color pigment is contaminated with some hue of another type, including blacks and whites. For example, ultramarine is a slightly more reddish blue and Phthalo is a slightly more greenish blue. They will prejudice colors they are mixed with because of that. Some blacks will mix with white to make a light tan, while others will make a cool bluish grey. Keep this in mind. (You will hear of mixing colors which are directly opposite on the color wheel, like orange and green, to make a grey. In theory this would work to yield a totally neutral grey, but the reality is that those colors have to be PERFECTLY accross from eack other, and equal in the other atributes. Maybe on a computer, but seldom in the real world of physical pigments. So, you can prettuy much forget that for making grey, but ah ha! This can make some color shifted greys and browns which are really cool!) I usually skip modern colors like Cerulean blue, Phthalo green and blue, dioxine purple, cadmium yellow lemon, prussian blue, etc. because they make modern looking art. Even when the hue is justifiable, you still have differences in saturation, opacity, and tinctoral power which just make things look -off. I still can't find a happy substitute for minium though. I tend to go with cad. red light as the closest I know of. I'd love to hear a better suggestion. C.R.L is very opaque, with a strong saturation, as is real minium. When mixing yellows and reds to make orange I always get a desaturation effect. OK, back to work or a StarFury cover doesn't arrive on time at Revell. Ranthulfr Asparlundr, OL, KSCA PS. The fine gold lines which look drawn are almost always painted gold on top of the base color. Some rare times they are sgraffito, but that is more common on an anconna (panel painting). Sometimes you see what looks like a large field of shell gold. I wonder if that is usually on top of yellow ochre, but I don't know. Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:46:30 -0500 From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Beans but you also have most people >voting on the basis of "ooh, ahh" factor. The piece that is impressive >because of its adherence to period techniques and its attention to detail >will usually be passed over with preference given to the flashy fantasy >piece. I've seen both of these outcomes more often than any kind of >well-reasoned judging in such competitions. Yuck, ptui! > >Graidhne ni Ruaidh I really have to agree with Mistress Graidhne about the bias toward the flashy or fantasy over the authentic or even well concieved. I actually have seen it go this way more times than I would like to admit. Having said that, I should add that it all comes down to what your goals are. If you want to reward art that is more appealing to the senses at the expense of historical accuracy and learning, fine. However, I believe that such art already has a place in mundane art shows or Science Fiction conventions. We are in a different place. In the SCA we theoretically care about historical accuracy and research as part of our goals. A bean count, especially by people who don't really understand the difference, then becomes meaningless to that goal. I do like to see people get a chance to learn judging, but I don't see a casual "look see" as learning judging efficiently. Ranthulfr Asparlundr Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:17:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Elizabeth Maes Subject: Re: [scribes]: A&S advice In the Midrealm, about 2-1/2 years ago, there was a "Laurel A&S-Thing" at my barony's Twelfth Night event. Any entrant had to have a Laurel sponser them, and for each sponsored person, the laurel had to provide one token. The artists/artisans sat with their work. The laurels then walked around, talked to people about what they had done. Each was to bestow one of the tokens to one artist. The point, as I understood it, was to provide a method for the members of the Order of the Laurel to actually put faces and artwork with names they had heard. It's hard to decide whether to put someone on a watch list, when you've never personally seen their work and only have a handful of people's opinions to go on. Personally, as one of the artists who participated, I thought it was a small success. It would have been a resounding success had the laurels present actually talked to me about my work (rather than hi, been so long, see ya). This was not the fault of the Laurels, since apparently no one explained to all of them what The Plan was. Hence my recommendation that if you have an A&S with any sort of judging or feedback mechanism - you MUST make sure that the people providing the feedback understand The Plan. - ---Eldred@concentric.net wrote: > > Unfortunately, in my area the people who enter A&S displays / competitions > / etc. are usually on the event staff, so you won't find them > "hovering"--which means we rely on documentation, if we can get it. It's > hard enough encouraging people to enter A&S in the first place...*sigh* > > What are these Laurel prizes that Eowyn speaks of? I recall our Kingdom > Minister of A&S encouraging Laurels to bestow tokens upon those whose > works are pleasing / show promise / are excellent / etc. Is this the same > thing? I have yet to see a Laurel do this, tho'. > > Eldred AElfwald > Canton of Falcon Cree, > Barony of Nottinghill Coill, > Kingdom of Atlantia > == Elizabeth Maes Environmental, Health & Safety Michigan Biologic Products Institute _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:30:57 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: neat pens In a message dated 98-07-09 07:59:13 EDT, AngelODay@aol.com writes: << These come in white too, and for shakey hands can make nice small lines. You can also blend those lines with a wet paint brush, so I'm not so sure about them being water proof. ~Aine >> if you can blend them with a wet brush they aren't waterproof-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:03:05 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: neat pens Concerning the neat pens, Aine wrote: These come in white too, and for shakey hands can make nice small lines. You can also blend those lines with a wet paint brush, so I'm not so sure about them being water proof. To which James replied: if you can blend them with a wet brush they aren't waterproof-JimBear Well, James, you *could* mix them if they were still wet! If they are mixable/spreadable after they've dried, then we can be sure that they are not waterproof. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:37:26 +0000 From: Steve Riley Subject: Re: [scribes]: neat pens They are great pen that can be purchased at most Michaels craft stores. They also have Callig. pens which are real nice in a pinch and come in a wide varity of colors. I'm new to the list, so I have mainly been a lurker, but I work at Michaels, and know about these pens. They come in about 102 colors, sizes and shapes. My name is Labhaiose inghean ui Raghailligh (Luisa for short) and I live in the barony of Windmasters Hill, Kindgom of Atlantia (Raleigh NC). In service Luisa At 11:02 PM 7/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >I discovered some cool pens today... > >Zig Memory System Millenium Writers (made by EK Success) >These are fiber tipped markers that are "acid-free, archival quality, >lightfast & waterproof". Available tip sizes are: .005mm, .01mm, >.03mm, .05mm, & .08mm. Available colors (in all tip sizes) are: >black, brown, blue, green, orange, pink, red ,violet & yellow. >Retail price is about $2 each. > >Gelly Roll (gel-based ink, rollerball pens) by Sakura >Acid-free, water-proof, fade-proof. Only one tip size available... >looks like about .05mm. Available in same colors as Millenium, and >also metallics (gold, silver, and colors) I'm not sure if the metallics >are acid free or not. Retail price: about $1.20 each. > >Ph test marker by Fiskars >A felt-tipped marker that determines the approximate Ph of paper. >Retail price: $7 > >The best place to look for these would probably be in a store that >deals in scrapbook/memory book supplies. Major art stores should have >them, too. > > >have fun >Chiara da Ravenna > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:49:57 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: A & S advice In a message dated 98-07-09 09:33:23 EDT, mesmith@calcna.ab.ca writes: << You have to give people a chance to learn about judging, and to understand what goes into it. Otherwise it just seems arbitrary and ego-driven, and they feel slighted, no matter what the verdict actually is. Morgan the Unknown >> Morgan, I agree with you about letting people judge, however we have an arts pentathalon with team and individual catagories and a seperate arts display every two years. In both events, no one knows the entrarant's name. All projects must be made between the times of the pentathalon so we don't have repeat winners. Pentathalon is juried, the arts show is not and is by people's choice. I have never seen a person's popularity affect the people's choice, the reason is that everyone there has been working their butts off doing period work, writing documentation and generally worrying about whether or not their stuff is period or not, so they have a genuine appreciation for a well crafted documented period piece. Most people's choice contests follow the same general flavor out here (Caid). The judges for the juried stuff read all the documentation inspect the item and give written comments to the participants. All the other judges I've worked with take the job very seriously and make sure that they try to be encouraging to every participant no matter how awful the entry is. I and other judges recuse themselves from judging pieces where they know the entrants piece by sight or might be a team mate. In cases where this has happened to me I usually act as the secretary for the other two judges and write down their comments. I am happy to read the story you related of the young gentle judging his father's work objectively, that is great to see......JimBear ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #148 *****************************