From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #142 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, July 6 1998 Volume 02 : Number 142 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Master John's color comparison card Re: [scribes]: Color theory Re: [scribes]: Color theory Re: [scribes]: Gold Questions Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge Re: Re: [scribes]: Color theory Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge Re: [scribes]: Color theory Re: [scribes]: Color theory ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:49:36 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Master John's color comparison card In a message dated 98-07-05 23:38:39 EDT, husted@hotmail.com writes: << I am a new illuminator and scribe in Ansteorra. Please, what are "Master John's color comparison card" and if they are extremely useful, how would I find one? >> Master John's colour comparison cards are colour cards which have each of the period pigments that he makes painted on vellum with various treatments on them. What would probably be of more use to you would be a colour wheel which will show the colours laid out spectrally and their opposite colours on the spectrum (very handy info to have when trying to grey a colour or to tone one)-Hope this helps-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 09:03:23 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Color theory Speaking as an Atlantian scribe, I think this class would be a super nifty thing! For one thing, poor scribes would benefit from not having to purchase so many paints when some colours can be mixed. Perhaps you could teach the colour theory and then show what modern tube colours match period colours. Miri (snip) > I used Master John's color comparison card as the basis for the prototype > class I taught and we mixed tube colors to achieve the desired matches. > This seems to me a way to learn to work with basic colors. I am assuming > this class will be of interest mostly to beginning scribes who are not yet > ready to tackle purchasing pigments and making our own paints. If, > however, modern tube colors exist that closely replicate period colors, > should I perhaps re-cast the class description? Having spent some years > learning how colors work together, I tend to think that knowing how to > mix-it-yourself to make whatever color you want is an invaluable skill and > offers an infinite range of color possibilities. Do others agree? Or is > it preferable to simply purchase colors that match and remove one layer of > uncertainty? > > Lucia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 09:05:09 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Color theory (snip) > I doubt that only new scribes will be interested in your class, as many > scribes haven't a clue what a colour wheel is or how to use them. One of the > inherent dangers in using period pigments is that there are some colours which > have chemical reactions to others (the leads with viridian and orpiment for > example) where as modern equivelents do not. My suggestion would be also a > study of underpainting colours for deep shadows and which colours work best > for greying a colour. Good luck with your class-JimBear Er....what's 'greying'? I'm not familiar with that term... Miri ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 06:15:35 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold Questions My questions about Eadui Basan's work have been answered and the conclusion seems unquestionably that plate 16 in the Decorated Letter was painted gold, not leaf. Now I have a theoretical question. Did illuminators typically lay down a layer of color under their gold paint, or did they paint directly onto the vellum? It seems to me that there probably was a layer of color under the gold, because of the different look that the mistakes have compared to the body of the border in plate 16. There is a smudge of gold that extends outside the border on the lower right that has a much yellower look than the majority of the border (thanks Eowyn). So, what would they have used *under* shell gold? Whenever we used to do (fake) gold in Calafia's scriptorium we'd first paint a layer of yellow and that would very much improve the look of the gold paint. This gold, on the other hand, looks much darker than a layer of yellow might produce. Any thoughts? And the more I look at that plate, the more I see *mistakes*! There's hope for me yet! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 09:18:20 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge Okay, I have to ask....why would you load a nib with a brush and how do you do it? I've never heard of such a thing...I've always dipped mine. Btw, I learned to use dip pens in third grade art class when I first got interested in calligraphy. Taught myself from then on. Miri (snip) > I'm one of those people who learned to use a brush to load my nibs, but if > I do get lazy and dip a pen, then I usually "shake" out the extra ink like > I do when I load it with a brush. My instructor had us over-load with the > brush, and then sort of snap the wrist to shake out the excess. It seems > to work for me. I cannot say that this was how it was actually done in > period, however. I was also taught (and it seems to work quite well) to > clean my nibs well between uses, and then to give them a Gum Arabic rub > down just before use again. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:44:08 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge Miri asked: > Okay, I have to ask....why would you load a nib with a brush and how do > you do it? I've never heard of such a thing...I've always dipped mine. > > Btw, I learned to use dip pens in third grade art class when I first got > interested in calligraphy. Taught myself from then on. > - -------------------- Hi Miri and all, I was taught by an exceptional mundane calligrapher to use Mitchell nibs without a reservoir and to load them using a brush on the back side of the nib. He then showed us how to snap the wrist to shake off the excess fluid - -- I say fluid, because he taught us (15 students in a year-long class) to use everything from tube gouaches, to dry pigments, to stick inks (both colored and black) to write with. He absolutely despises bottled inks, and taught us to use everything else. I will break down and use bottled inks when I am in a big hurry, but have come to LOVE the feel and look of stick ink for all my work now. The brush loading technique is good for making the calligrapher work slower, as you can usually only get one or two words written before you have to reload. Makes you watch the formation of the letters better... not much of a chance of getting sloppy. I even will use this technique with Speedball nibs, even though they do have reservoirs. If you will be at Pennsic, I will gladly show anyone how I was taught to do this. No extra charge!! . KHvS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:48:30 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [scribes]: Color theory In a message dated 07/06/98 06:07:16, miri wrote: <> Greying is making a color less intense by adding a little of it's opposite on the color wheel. If you start with orange and add a small dab of blue/blue- green/blue-violet you will make a lovely array of browns. Luighseach I generally just buy primary colors and mix from there. I have a Quiller color wheel and love it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 09:53:50 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge > If you will be at Pennsic, I will gladly show anyone how I was taught to do > this. No extra charge!! . > > KHvS I'll be there! When and where will you teach it? :) Miri ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 08:55:27 -0400 From: Martha Knowles Subject: Re: [scribes]: Color theory There is an excellent book, _Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green_, that discusses the various color combinations that will create color wheels. The author identifies readily available pigments and what they do in different combinations. Also discusses greying. Great book for beginners and those who are not too familiar with modern watercolor and gouache colors. Then there's another book, the name of which I can never remember, that has an *excellent* list of what modern colors mimic medieval colors (talks about the lakes, viridian, etc.). Blessings, Marthe Elsbeth Heather Swann wrote: > > Speaking as an Atlantian scribe, I think this class would be a super > nifty thing! For one thing, poor scribes would benefit from not having > to purchase so many paints when some colours can be mixed. Perhaps you > could teach the colour theory and then show what modern tube colours > match period colours. > > Miri ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:31:59 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Color theory Thanks oodles! I wonder why it is then that we're always taught to mix yellow and blue to get green in elementary school... I imagine any books that discuss these things and techniques would be very helpful to scribes in general as the SCA scribal arts seem to be taking on a more professional tone.... I was pretty horrified when Muireann mentioned the judge who said she should try drawing more things freehand. If that ever becomes a requirement, I'll have to give away my guache and just work in kitchens! :) Tracing paper and rulers and compasses and so forth are my friends! :) Miri > > There is an excellent book, _Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green_, that discusses > the various color combinations that will create color wheels. The author > identifies readily available pigments and what they do in different > combinations. Also discusses greying. Great book for beginners and those who > are not too familiar with modern watercolor and gouache colors. > > Then there's another book, the name of which I can never remember, that has an > *excellent* list of what modern colors mimic medieval colors (talks about the > lakes, viridian, etc.). > > Blessings, > Marthe Elsbeth ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #142 *****************************