From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1419 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, February 25 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1419 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Re: [scribes]: scribing for money, and small rant! Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Fw: Fw: [scribes]: scribing for money Fwd: [scribes]: Which comes first? and charging for scrolls Re: [scribes]: scribal commissions Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Re: [scribes]: First Plunge... Paper and Purple Questions Re: [scribes]: First Plunge... Paper and Purple Questions Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Re: [scribes]: First Plunge... Paper and Purple Questions Re: [scribes]: Which comes first? and charging for scrolls Re: [scribes]: Which comes first? and charging for scrolls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:03:56 EST From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money In a message dated 2/24/00 5:53:43 PM, ulfnaidan@uswest.net writes: << How can one kingdom bar a scribe from ever doing scribe work within the Society? >> I believe the intent of the words "within the Society", meant by the original poster, were "doing award scrolls for the West Kingdom," where the word "Society" was being used as a shorthand for "award scrolls" (as opposed to, say, doing a book, as in those being commissioned by Master Johannes). Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:14:04 -0700 From: Shawn Legere Dunham Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money What's with the warrant you keep talking about? Are you talking about officers? I was an offical scribe for 2 years, but now I am just a plain scribe no warrant necessary. I never had a quota. Bri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:17:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money, and small rant! On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Sally Burnell wrote: > Let me ask you Peers on-list this question, then: Do you know fairly well in > advance who you have voted to elevate? (In other words, do you get polling > results back fairly quickly to where you *know* who has been voted for > elevation?) And how soon after polling results are back does the Royalty get > word of your choice(s), and how soon do they decide whether or not to > elevate? Peerages are not a result of the peers "vote" or choice. We offer our advice to the Crown (sometimes in the form of the results of a poll), but we don't know who might be getting a peerage until (and there's a certain amount of "if" included in that until) the Crown decides and tells us. Graidhne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:42:23 -0500 From: Sally Burnell Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money At 07:43 PM 02/24/2000 -0800, Peter Steiner wrote: >This is the Law in the Kingdom of The West. Scribes must produce a >certain number of scrolls each year in order to maintain their >"warrant" - and those scrolls must be given to the Crown without >recompense. The price of saying "NO" is the loss of one's warrant >(official status as an SCA Scribe.) My goodness! You mean, they cannot even say, "Um, listen, I'm having an attack of REAL LIFE(tm) and cannot do any scrolls for a while"???? Boy, if I lived there, I'd've been de-warranted a long time ago!! So, what, do they expect their scribes to be professional artisans minus the recompense that a professional would be receiving???? And just how many scrolls per year are they expected to create in order to maintain Official Status as an SCA Scribe? Boy, if we tried that in the Midrealm, there would be wholesale revolt!! >I can only imagine how other SCA Artists and Artisans would respond to >such a law being directed at their work. Armorers? No one would have >professionally made armor. Cooks? We'd all be hungry. Seamstresses? >Make it yourself, or do without. Oh, I'm sure that *would* be the case! Why the West's scribes are held to such stringent rules, all because It Has Always Been That Way, is beyond me!! >Why are the Scribes treated differently than other Society craftsmen >and craftswomen? Who benefits from this law? Scribes are a necessary part of the Court function, and are therefore held to a completely different set of parameters than say, a costumer, an armourer, a leatherworker, a blacksmith and so on. However, demanding a certain quota of work from a scribe when they have a REAL LIFE(tm) to maintain seems a bit stringent to me. And as well, punishing a scribe by banning them if they are caught accepting any kind of recompense for their work also seems a bit unfair. Other craftsmen are allowed to make money from their work, and materials don't come cheap! But then, this is just an illustration of InterKingdom Anthropology. Diff'rent strokes, I guess.............. Lady Saradwen Ariandalen Marche of Gwyntarian (Akron/Kent, OH) Midrealm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:02:27 -0800 From: Donna E Green Subject: Fw: Fw: [scribes]: scribing for money Greetings, I am not on this scribes list, but your message was forwarded to me by one of the West Kingdom scribes who is on this list. I am the Chancellor of the West Kingdom College of Scribes. It is the policy of the West Kingdom College of Scribes that a scribe who takes money for doing a scroll will no longer receive scroll assignments in the West Kingdom. The only exception to this is, as Giles said, when arrangements have been made with the recipient for extra expensive materials which may be beyond the budget of most scribes. This is a policy which I inherited with my office and I asked for the reasons. The reasons were explained to me and I find them to be sound so the policy stands. The reasons are: 1) Work which is bought and paid for is often expected, by the recipient/customer, to be exactly to his/her specifications. This can often mean re-doing a piece over and over again until the recipient is satisfied. The back log of work to be done in the kingdom is too large to have time for re-doing scrolls over and over again. If you do not believe that customers will behave this way, you haven't talked to as many professional armorers and professional costumers in the SCA as I have, or at least not the same ones. 2) Also, the heralds, chirurgeons, marshals, seneschals, etc. who serve the subjects of the Crown are not paid for their work with anything more than the gratitude of those they serve. I see no reason a scribe's work should be any different. I have explained the reasons for this policy to those who have asked about it. If at some point a number of the members of the West Kingdom College of Scribes put forth good reasons to consider a change to the policy, their arguments would be given all due consideration. Until such time, the policy stands. If any of the people receiving this message wish to question me further on this point, I can be reached at d.e.green@juno.com Duquessa Juana Isabella de Montoya y Ramirez - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Teresa McCartney" To: "Juana" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:50:24 -0800 Subject: Fw: [scribes]: scribing for money Message-ID: <004101bf7f32$b0c5ab20$7ace193f@shadow> Care to comment for these good gentles, as Kingdom Scribe? Scribes from the Known World around are foaming at the mouth about this..... Teresa To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 2:08 AM Subject: [scribes]: scribing for money > >One last thing has me concerned....and perhaps you can clear up my > >misperceptions. Is there any place in the Known World where it is > >"against the law" for a Scribe to take a commission for an elaborate > >scroll, and receive in return a fair wage or trade for that work? I've > >heard that there are, or were, such Kingdoms....where a Scribe would > >lose the right to practice Scribal Arts within the Society if he or she > >gave into such a base impulse. > > Hi Peter, > This is still the case in the Kingdom of the West (and therefore on the > Principality of Lochac).Any scribe who takes a red cent for doing a scroll > will lose their warrant and be forbidden to do scribal work for the > Society. The only exceptions to this rule are if the recepient requests > expensive extras like gold or vellum;reimbursement may be requested for > those items. > > I have repeatedly asked for the reasoning behind this rule, but the only > answer I ever recieved amounted to "because that's the way it is." This is > a particlularly chafing restriction to those of our number like myself who > must earn their daily bread through the scribal arts, as in practice this > means we can rarely afford to give away work that is worth so much. I have > proposed repeal or modification of this rule twice, but to no avail. > > Surely the ancient proverb "The laborer is worthy of his hire" applies even > to Scribes? :-) > Don't I wish! From you comments I gather that receiving commissions is > acceptable and practiced in other kingdoms? > > your servant > Giles de Laval > Lochac Deputy Provost > > > > > Mark Calderwood > Calligraphy Artist > (02) 4759 1879 > http://illuminare.virtualave.net > -------------------------------- > "The foolish reject what they see and not what they think; > The wise reject what they think and not what they see." > > Huang Po ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! 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For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:31:53 EST From: Aralyn67@aol.com Subject: Fwd: [scribes]: Which comes first? and charging for scrolls - --part1_6c.1d1b5f7.25e77bd9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_6c.1d1b5f7.25e77bd9_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Aralyn67@aol.com From: Aralyn67@aol.com Full-name: Aralyn67 Message-ID: <78.1e94479.25e77b43@aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:29:23 EST Subject: Re: [scribes]: Which comes first? and charging for scrolls To: EowynA@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45 In a message dated 2/24/00 4:57:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, EowynA@aol.com writes: > I caution those who wish to become publicly upset over the customs and laws > of other kingdoms that said customs and laws arose from the unique history > of > that kingdom, and that the subjects of these kingdoms do not appear to find > them to be unduly harsh. > I would like to comment on this. If those customs are so harsh as to cause that Kingdom to have to seek help outside their Kingdom, then it does effect those out side of it and so will give rise to comments. The West Kingdom has a backlog of over 2200 scrolls. AEthelmearc, and I believe also Ealdormere, having large numbers of scribes, have a number of them working on backlog WESTERN scrolls. Now I don't begrudge this and but rather I am quite happy to lend a hand and think actually it's rather fun to do scrolls to ship to the other side of the Knowne Worlde. But I have to wonder if they need this help because the atmosphere is restrictive to their own scribes, and if we are not, by being helpful, actually injuring the Western scribes we believe we are adding by enabling the status quo. I would finish the current assignments I have, as this was initiated by our King and Queen as a gesture to the Western monarchs, however if I were to hear from the Western scribes that this was somehow undermining them, I would likely not continue to take Western scroll assignments after this reign. I don't live there. I don't know the reason they have such a large backlog. Are there just not many scribes or IS the system failing them? Can someone from the West give me an opinion here? Kim - --part1_6c.1d1b5f7.25e77bd9_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:41:21 EST From: "Comtesse Judith" Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribal commissions There is no such law, written or unwritten, in Trimaris. I know of scribes trading services (such as garb for scrolls). I know of other artisans who have made items for money, so it would be quite hypocritical to condemn scribes for accepting paid commissions. I hope your reference to "base impulses" was a joke! I don't see anything wrong with any artisan asking for money for their work. In Service, Judith >From: Peter Steiner >To: scribes@castle.org >>One last thing has me concerned....and perhaps you can clear up my >misperceptions. Is there any place in the Known World where it is >"against the law" for a Scribe to take a commission for an elaborate >scroll, and receive in return a fair wage or trade for that work? I've >heard that there are, or were, such Kingdoms....where a Scribe would >lose the right to practice Scribal Arts within the Society if he or she >gave into such a base impulse. Perhaps I was informed in error; or >perhaps I misunderstood what was said. Surely the ancient proverb "The >laborer is worthy of his hire" applies even to Scribes? :-) > >Whatever the case, I thank you again for the chuckle. (How did Isis >fare without her raven tresses? Were her powers diminished? ) > >With Respect and Honor I remain, > >Peter Gwer Rychen von Bern, Lapidary Craftsman and Maker of Scribal >Tools & Pigments, Barony of the Rhyderrich Hael, Aethelmearc > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:39:04 EST From: Aralyn67@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money > I think the society as a whole would treat scribes slightly differently if > > we were paid for our work, even if our pay was in membership dues/free > > events or something like that. One adult free per scroll completed for > this > > event. > I live in a fairly small Canton. We do two events a year. Generally depending on how many courts (whether it's just Baronial or we get the Big hats too), plus tourney scrolls we probably have between 5 and 25 scrolls given out. We as a group could not afford to give away a free reservation for each scroll. We generally try to keep our event prices as low as possible and the margin is very thin. Too thin unfortunately for us to pay for the scrolls that way. Aralyn/Kim (I just realized I signed my last post with my mundane name :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:47:57 EST From: Aralyn67@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: First Plunge... Paper and Purple Questions Arches makes watercolor paper in colors including several shades of purply colors. Aralyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:58:47 -0800 From: lilinah@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [scribes]: First Plunge... Paper and Purple Questions Lady Saradwen Ariandalen wrote: >At 03:57 PM 02/24/2000 -0800, lilinah@earthlink.net wrote: > >I'm considering entering a Kingdom A&S competition (gulp). It > >involves a work including both calligraphy and illumination from > >before 1100 CE. I've no hope of doing well, i'm a novice, butcha > >gotta start somewhere. I barely know what i'm doing, but i'm feeling > >inspired. I find the vividness of much early work very exciting. > >Good for you!! Glad to see someone entering an A&S at Kingdom level. What >Kingdom do you hail from? Well, i don't know any better. Also, i haven't seen anything else i wanted to enter at any other level. I'm in the West, in NoCal and things *seem* pretty laid back here. Of course i've only been in the SCA for about 9 months and i haven't entered any competitions yet. But i guess i might as well put my neck on the chopping block now :-) Thanks for the pointer to Arches 140 lb. hot press paper and size suggestions. > >Question Two: > >Many early pieces i've seen use a great deal of purple (more or less > >red-violet), even purple pages. I'm thinking of Late Roman and > >Spanish pieces. What would be the best paint to use to achieve this > >color. From what i've seen in the paint store, it will be less > >permanent than most other colors. It looks bluer than Alizarin and > >Madder. Suggestions please? > >Well, now, although I don't really know how it is done now, according to >"Understanding Illuminated Manuscripts" by Michelle P. Brown, ISBN >0-89236-217-0, published by the J. Paul Getty Museum, 1994, $14.95, it says >that in the Mediterranean regions, murex shell (a shell-fish dye) was used >to achieve the purple page colors. It goes on to say that in NW Europe, the >plant dye folium, from the turnsole, was more frequently employed. Well, i'm certainly not going to use murex :-) Little buggers are nearly extinct and from what i've read no one is really sure how the dye was made. >I've seen Purple pages done by SCAdians, but I don't know how they achieved >their colours. If memory serves, wasn't cochineal used to achieve that rich >red-violet colour? I seem to remember seeing stuff dyed by our Weaver's >Guild using cochineal that was a really rich red-violet. Also, lac gives a >really rich blood red colour as well. But as to how to make a page purple >like those found in antiquity, like Byzantine pages, well............I'm not >really sure, quite honestly. To be honest, I'd be curious myself as to how >it is done, just to satisfy my own curiosity! As someone who's still new, i wasn't planning on using authentic pigments. I'm still in the gouache stage. I'm not intending to do a purple page, but rather one using a fair amount of purple (along with about 3 or 4 other colors, plus black and white). What purple or purplish gouache would be close in color? I don't want to end up with a whole cartload of purple paint tubes before i find the right one. Just looking for suggestions. Again my thanks both for information passed along and any that might be forthcoming, and for the encouragement. Anahita Gauri al-shazhiyya bint-Karim al-hakim al-Fassi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Good Lady, With great respect, have you considered that perhaps there is a relationship between this Law and the large backlog of scrolls which you inherited? The West Kingdom has been blessed with a great number of talented artists. How many have chosen not to play our game because they alone, amongst all the Artists and Artisans in the Society, are forbidden to practice their craft for profit? No one would suggest that the College of Scribes should deal with the vagaries of overly particular "customers". That is the job of the artist who takes on a special commission. Those Gentles who receive scrolls as gifts have no right to complain about fussy particulars. Such complaints would be simple bad manners. On the other hand, a Gentle who pays for a special work of art does have the right to be particular - but only when dealing with the artist. You, as Chancellor, are not paid to negotiate for others...nor should you be expected to do so. Most scribes here in Aethelmearc are pleased to present work to their Crown or Barony without cost. The difference between their work and the work done under a command of Law is simple......it is the difference between a gift and an obligation. To an Aethelmearc scribe, a scroll which is done without remuneration is a contribution to "The Dream".....given as a free gift, without constraint. She has every right to negotiate a fair price (not only for materials, but also for her time) if a Gentle wishes to have a particularly elaborate scroll. This right (whether or not she ever chooses to exercise it) makes all the difference in the world to her self esteem, and to the perceived value of her work. Dear Lady, you may agree or disagree with my reasoning as you see fit. This is of no consequence between Gentle folk. The very last thing I would desire is to foster any ill feelings between us. I bear you only the kindest regards, and the highest respect for the work you are doing for the Society. In this light I ask that you please consider one final possibility. It may be that the members of your College have not petitioned for change in the Law simply because the power of SCA tradition is so strong. Those who remain in the Society have no wish to be ostracized for their radical views. Those who disagree often find it less painful simply to walk away from the SCA, rather than to remain and fight for change. I know calligraphers and artists who have chosen both paths. When a talented artist leaves the Society we are all impoverished. May I suggest that the only way you will ever discover the true feelings of your fellow scribes in the West Kingdom is to conduct an anonymous survey. I invite you and entreat you to join our Scribes' List. You would be a most welcome participant! (Most of our time is spent in discussion of the Scribal Arts, not in the debate of inter-Kingdom politics. :-) ) In Honor and Service I remain, Yours most sincerely, Peter Gwer Rychen von Bern Lapidary Artist, Alchemist of Mineral Pigments, and Scribe Barony of the Rhyderrich Hael (Buffalo, NY, USA) Aethelmearc mka Peter B. Steiner - petersdiner@yahoo.com - --- Donna E Green wrote: > > Greetings, > > I am not on this scribes list, but your message was forwarded to me > by > one of the West Kingdom scribes who is on this list. I am the > Chancellor > of the West Kingdom College of Scribes. > > It is the policy of the West Kingdom College of Scribes that a scribe > who > takes money for doing a scroll will no longer receive scroll > assignments > in the West Kingdom. The only exception to this is, as Giles said, > when > arrangements have been made with the recipient for extra expensive > materials which may be beyond the budget of most scribes. This is a > policy which I inherited with my office and I asked for the reasons. > The > reasons were explained to me and I find them to be sound so the > policy > stands. > > The reasons are: > 1) Work which is bought and paid for is often expected, by the > recipient/customer, to be exactly to his/her specifications. This can > often mean re-doing a piece over and over again until the recipient > is > satisfied. The back log of work to be done in the kingdom is too > large to > have time for re-doing scrolls over and over again. If you do not > believe > that customers will behave this way, you haven't talked to as many > professional armorers and professional costumers in the SCA as I > have, or > at least not the same ones. > 2) Also, the heralds, chirurgeons, marshals, seneschals, etc. who > serve > the subjects of the Crown are not paid for their work with anything > more > than the gratitude of those they serve. I see no reason a scribe's > work > should be any different. > > I have explained the reasons for this policy to those who have asked > about it. If at some point a number of the members of the West > Kingdom > College of Scribes put forth good reasons to consider a change to the > policy, their arguments would be given all due consideration. Until > such > time, the policy stands. > > If any of the people receiving this message wish to question me > further > on this point, I can be reached at d.e.green@juno.com > > Duquessa Juana Isabella de Montoya y Ramirez __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:59:48 -0800 From: "Teresa McCartney" Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribing for money Lady Saradwen said: > My goodness! You mean, they cannot even say, "Um, listen, I'm having an > attack of REAL LIFE(tm) and cannot do any scrolls for a while"???? Boy, if I > lived there, I'd've been de-warranted a long time ago!! So, what, do they > expect their scribes to be professional artisans minus the recompense that a > professional would be receiving???? And just how many scrolls per year are > they expected to create in order to maintain Official Status as an SCA > Scribe? Boy, if we tried that in the Midrealm, there would be wholesale revolt!! Theory and practice aren't always identical. I had Serious Life (open heart surgery) while holding onto the office of Seawolf Scribe (Mists Principality Scribe), and didn't actually get much scroll production done for that year (for *some* reason....), and no one ranted, raged, or pulled my warrant...they were all *very* supportive and helpful, and helped me out with an office that I couldn't do justice to just that moment (my heart wasn't in it ;-)) I think that the reality is somewhere closer to the concept of needing to actually actively be *working* on things. I don't know....it doesn't chafe....it's my service to the Kingdom, just as others do heraldry (book & voice both) or act as chirurgeons, or marshalls, or water bearers,etc, that are also consuming of time and/or skill. Plus, I get to hang out with really cool people who like to talk about really cool art stuff (tm), and play with different techniques & materials, and experiment with different styles, all for my own personal pleasure, and still have people *thank* me for keeping myself amused. It's all in how you look at it... Lady Teresa leMarchant Crosston, Mists, West ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 02:05:53 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: First Plunge... Paper and Purple Questions In a message dated 2/25/00 2:51:31 AM, Aralyn67@aol.com writes: >Arches makes watercolor paper in colors including several shades of purply >colors. > >Aralyn If Aralyn hadn't posted this I would never have remembered...... A while ago I was looking for black paper for a scroll. I went into a scrapbooking store and found a nice archival cotton paper. Not as thick as I like, but still serviceable. While I was standing there looking through the rack of paper one in particular caught my eye. I was working on a Laurel scroll on cochineal dyed vellum at the time and the paper in the store was the same exact color. :-) Eibhlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:09:13 -0800 From: "Teresa McCartney" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Which comes first? and charging for scrolls > Are there just not many scribes or IS the system failing them? Can someone > from the West give me an opinion here? Yup...I've got an opinion. Please, please, keep helping out! We have few scribes, and 3 reigns a year, and we've been around since the dawn of time so the backlog has built up. We seem to go through cycles with varying numbers of active scribes, and the backlog waxes and wanes accordingly. I don't think I've ever heard anyone *here* grouse about not getting paid to play. Teresa leMarchant Crosston, Mists, West ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 02:37:34 EST From: Aralyn67@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Which comes first? and charging for scrolls In a message dated 2/25/00 2:20:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, teresa.mccartney2@gte.net writes: > > > Are there just not many scribes or IS the system failing them? Can > someone > > from the West give me an opinion here? > > Yup...I've got an opinion. Well, if everyone there is happy and it's just a case of not enough folks to take up the work load I'll keep up on my end too. I just wouldn't want the guilt of helping repress you guys out there if that's how you were feeling. > > Please, please, keep helping out! > We have few scribes, and 3 reigns a year, and we've been around > since the dawn of time so the backlog has built up. We seem > to go through cycles with varying numbers of active scribes, and the > backlog waxes and wanes accordingly. I don't think I've ever heard > anyone *here* grouse about not getting paid to play. You know I don't think most scribes really want to charge for their scroll assignments, with the possible exception of recovering a bit for materials once in a while, some just don't like being told they can't, regardless of whether or not they actually would. Aralyn ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1419 ******************************