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scribes digest          Friday, July 3 1998          Volume 02 : Number 133



In this issue:

    Re: [scribes]: Light Tables
    Re: [scribes]: Light Tables
    Re: [scribes]: What kind of gold/ink or paint?
    [scribes]: C&I Guild
    [scribes]: Quick Question
    [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge
    [scribes]: Re: Dip vs. Cartridge
    Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 19:11:54 -0400
From: Pete Steiner <troubadr@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables

Don't you folks have any respect for authenticity?!  Razors weren't used
on felines until the mid-17th Century.  I have it on good authority that
scribes in Period used lye made from wood ash and clear water to
depilate their cats.... <running for cover>
- -Gwer-

Holly and Jake Gassel wrote:

> FITCHYBEAR@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 98-06-30 15:36:44 EDT, Varju@aol.com writes:
> >
> > << It works quite
> >  well, unless the cat crawls under it and blocks my light.
> >
> >  Noemi
> >   >>
> > shave the cat-JimBear
>
> Now thats an entirely new kind of fun! <g>
>
> Aidan whyisthecathidingheimer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:38:46 EDT
From: Varju@aol.com
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables

In a message dated 98-07-02 19:16:48 EDT, you write:

<< Don't you folks have any respect for authenticity?!  Razors weren't used
 on felines until the mid-17th Century.  I have it on good authority that
 scribes in Period used lye made from wood ash and clear water to
 depilate their cats.... <running for cover>
 -Gwer->>

I'm really glad my cat can't read e-mail (no matter how hard he tries).  He'd
be a worse monster than he is if he saw how this thread was going. . .

Noemi

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 14:11:37 +1000
From: Steve Roylance <roylance@corplink.com.au>
Subject: Re: [scribes]: What kind of gold/ink or paint?

Hi,
   I would suggest that this is designs under the gold either in a gesso
layer or tooled into the vellum, but the later is unlikely as the vellum
would most likely to too thin to do this.  On one scroll I put a design into
some flat gold by using a stiff crow quill loaded with black ink and cutting
the gold leaving a black line.  I did detail of a gilded griffin's head like
this and it looks like the feathers are individually gilded and outlined, but
that is not what has been done here.

as ever

Thorfinn

Lady Mylisant wrote:
> 
> Greetings All,
> 
>      I have been looking through my newly acquired "Manuscript Painting
> at the Court of France: The 14th cent. (1310-1380)" by Avril and
> something caught my eye that I'm curious about and would like to know
> for future reference. On page 33 is a good example of what I have a
> question about. In between and around the four-lobed medallions is an
> area of gold that has decoration on it. Would anyone be able to hazard a
> guess at whether this is leaf gold or shell gold and if the dark
> detailing on top of the gold is ink or paint? I'm assuming it is on top
> of the gold because I have seen other examples where the dark detailing
> has been smudged off and a solid area of gold is now visable.
>      I've considered doing a scroll with this kind of decoration and
> would like to go into it with some idea of what I'm doing. (go figure)
> 
>                                            Thanks in Advance
> --
> Lady Mylisant de la Croix

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 23:16:30 -0700
From: Aslyn Crystyn <aslyn@onramp.net>
Subject: [scribes]: C&I Guild

> Hello!  I host the local Calligrapher's and Illuminer's Guild for our Barony.  I was wondering if any other Guildmistresses\Guildmasters would care to share information on any of the following?
>
> 1.    Where are you from?  How long have you been hosting C&I Guild?
>
> 2.    Where do you host your meetings?  At a house?  At a library?  At a rec center?
>
> 3.    What does your Guild like to do at a meeting?  Paint?  Callig?  Short Lecture?  Work on Projects?  Devour Books?  Eat *way* too much chocolate?  All of the above?
>
> 4.    Have you tried any great ideas? If so, what?  Have you tried any great ideas that didn't quite turn out the way you planned?  If so, what?
>
> 5.    Does your Canton\Shire\Barony\March have a budget for supplies?
>
> 6.    Does you Canton\Shire\Barony\March provide and\or give supplies to new artisans?
>
> 7.    For those Kingdoms who do have standardized scroll texts\Charter programs:  Does your Guild help newer artisans make the transition to doing original scrolls - if so, how?  (especially source material?)
>
> 8.    For those Kingdoms who do not have standardized scroll texts:  Does your Kingdom\Guild have any resources to help newer artisans embark on original scrolls?
>
> 9.    Does your Kingdom have any system for assisting those Guilds stranded in far reaching locales that may not have resources or guidance available to them?
>
> 10.    What is your favorite thing about hosting C&I?
>
> 11.    What is your least favorite thing about hosting C&I?
>
> 12.    What do you like to do?  Calligraphy?  Illumination?  What is your favorite style\time period?
>
> Thanks so much for your time and responses!
>
> Lady Aslyn Crystyn
> Barony of the Steppes
> Kingdom of Ansteorra
>
> Carpe Frommage!
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 23:18:05 -0700
From: Aslyn Crystyn <aslyn@onramp.net>
Subject: [scribes]: Quick Question

> In your Kingdom, do scribes generally use:
>
> 1.    Dip pens?
>
> 2.    Dip pens with reservoirs?
>
> 3.    Cartridge pens?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:16:56 -0700
From: "Thomas Brownwell" <brownwell@home.com>
Subject: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge

Lady Aslyn posed the question of whether a particular kingdom used dip vs. dip
with reservoir vs. cartridge.  I'd hazard a guess that *all* calligraphers start
with the last and work their way toward the first.  This is because of the ease
and availability of cartridge pens, and the cantankerous nature of most high
quality "dip" pens or feathers.

So I have myself to ask why she'd ask in the first place.  I presume that it's
because there are a lot of scribes around her who use fountain pens instead of
dip.  Here in Caid I know that almost all of the competent calligraphers use dip
pens of one kind or another, and I think that this is a matter of experience.
It is impossible to do many calligraphic florishes with a fountain pen, so one
turns to the dip kind simply because they are a more capable tool for producing
pretty writing.  The primary disadvantage that I have found in fountain pens is
that the tip is too broad to get a nice clean *thin* line out of them.  Many
medieval hands have thins strokes that are so narrow that they don't show up in
the books, even in high quality zoomed-in photos.  You can't do that with any
cartridge pen unless you grind off the end of it, which I don't recommend
(there's usually not a lot of metal to play with, and if you mess up you've
ruined an expensive writing implement).  The second disadvantage that I find
bothersome is that I can't press harder on the pen and get the nib to flex.  So
what?  Well, that's how many hands in late Gothic, especially Batarde (Bastard)
exaggerate thick lines.  Finally, I can't continue writing with a cartridge pen
when I tip it up onto one corner.  This is absolutely crucial for every hand I
know, from 6th C Uncial all the way to 16th C Italic (Humanist).  The more
flexible the nib, the more it can vibrate as it is drawn across the page, which
pulls the ink down by capillary action.  -- Can't do that with a cartridge pen.

As for the question of Reservoir versus None, that's a matter of (1) which type
of commercial nib you use, and (2) personal preference.  I *really* like the
ones which are available for the Mitchell Roundhand Nibs.  They reduce the
frequency that I have to refill the pen.  They allow me to write with my paper
on a flat horizontal table without the danger of blotting ink all over my work
accidentally.  They control the flow of ink out of the nib by simply adjusting
how far forward or back I slide them.  They're well worth it.

As for quills, it is very easy to add a reservoir to a quill by taking something
springy (either a slice of quill itself, or a narrow 1/2 inch long strip of
aluminum from a soda can), bending it into an "S" and inserting it most of the
way up into the quill (Rose Folsom shows how in the Calligrapher's Dictionary,
as does the article in the Calligrapher's Handbook on cutting quills).  This
holds more ink up inside the pen and controls how quickly it flows out.  I've
read that this is perfectly authentic -- nothing new there!!!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas Brownell       AKA     Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher,
brownwell@home.com             Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,...
San Diego, CA                         Barony of Calafia, Caid
The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules.
Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 00:34:20 -0700
From: Aslyn Crystyn <aslyn@onramp.net>
Subject: [scribes]: Re: Dip vs. Cartridge

Thomas Brownwell wrote (snipped):

>  I'd hazard a guess that *all* calligraphers start with the last and work their
> way toward the first.

Actually, I think I spent about a week or two in Junior High with the Ken Brown
Calligraphy set.  An art teacher introduced to me dip pens soon after.

> So I have myself to ask why she'd ask in the first place.  I presume that it's
> because there are a lot of scribes around her who use fountain pens instead of
> dip.

I think it's always a good thing to learn from others, even if it's not a technique
that you typically employ.  And there's always something new under the sun.
Actually, besides last minute field scribing or behind the throne court scribing, I
can think of one individual in our Barony and one...perhaps two more individuals in
our Kingdom that uses fountain pens.   I believe that all other calligraphers in our
Baronial Guild, if not our Kingdom, use a dip pen.  I'm very proud of the enthusiam
and skill of our Guild members.

> Here in Caid I know that almost all of the competent calligraphers use dip
> pens of one kind or another, and I think that this is a matter of experience.

Yes...that's also true in many arts.  Master Ambrose, the gentle I named in our
Barony who uses a cartidge pen, does beautiful work.

>  As for the question of Reservoir versus None, that's a matter of (1) which type
> of commercial nib you use, and (2) personal preference.

To be honest, I've never used a reservoir.  It takes a grreat deal of work and
concentation, but I'm learning to keep consistency and form while dipping.

>>   I *really* like the ones which are available for the Mitchell Roundhand Nibs.
>
I use a *really* stiff nib and have learned to coax a curve out of it.  Therefore,
Mitchell's are way too soft for me.

' Sound like Caid scribes are doing some wonderful work!  : D

Aslyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 02:18:38 -0400
From: Pete Steiner <troubadr@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Dip vs. Cartridge

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Thomas, there are fountain (not cartridge) pens which provide sufficient flexibility
to do most period hands.  The ones I've found are:  Pelikan MC-120 Deluxe Master
Calligraphy Pen and the Rotring Art Pen series.  They are both expensive - the
Pelikan being the most per pen - but they're worth every penny.  Both of these pens
can handle pigmented ink, such as Pelikan Fount India and Calli.  If you'd like more
information on these pens, just let me know.  :-)
I think you were familiar only with Schaeffer and Osmiroid and Parker calligraphy
pens - all of which are good for beginners, but, since they're neither flexible nor
capable of handling pigmented ink, are unsuitable for the production of SCA scrolls.

The Pelikan and Rotring will produce excellent, properly formed, permanently
pigmented lettering for our work.

- -Gwer Rychen von Bern-

Thomas Brownwell wrote:

> Lady Aslyn posed the question of whether a particular kingdom used dip vs. dip
> with reservoir vs. cartridge.  I'd hazard a guess that *all* calligraphers start
> with the last and work their way toward the first.  This is because of the ease
> and availability of cartridge pens, and the cantankerous nature of most high
> quality "dip" pens or feathers.
>
> So I have myself to ask why she'd ask in the first place.  I presume that it's
> because there are a lot of scribes around her who use fountain pens instead of
> dip.  Here in Caid I know that almost all of the competent calligraphers use dip
> pens of one kind or another, and I think that this is a matter of experience.
> It is impossible to do many calligraphic florishes with a fountain pen, so one
> turns to the dip kind simply because they are a more capable tool for producing
> pretty writing.  The primary disadvantage that I have found in fountain pens is
> that the tip is too broad to get a nice clean *thin* line out of them.  Many
> medieval hands have thins strokes that are so narrow that they don't show up in
> the books, even in high quality zoomed-in photos.  You can't do that with any
> cartridge pen unless you grind off the end of it, which I don't recommend
> (there's usually not a lot of metal to play with, and if you mess up you've
> ruined an expensive writing implement).  The second disadvantage that I find
> bothersome is that I can't press harder on the pen and get the nib to flex.  So
> what?  Well, that's how many hands in late Gothic, especially Batarde (Bastard)
> exaggerate thick lines.  Finally, I can't continue writing with a cartridge pen
> when I tip it up onto one corner.  This is absolutely crucial for every hand I
> know, from 6th C Uncial all the way to 16th C Italic (Humanist).  The more
> flexible the nib, the more it can vibrate as it is drawn across the page, which
> pulls the ink down by capillary action.  -- Can't do that with a cartridge pen.
>
> As for the question of Reservoir versus None, that's a matter of (1) which type
> of commercial nib you use, and (2) personal preference.  I *really* like the
> ones which are available for the Mitchell Roundhand Nibs.  They reduce the
> frequency that I have to refill the pen.  They allow me to write with my paper
> on a flat horizontal table without the danger of blotting ink all over my work
> accidentally.  They control the flow of ink out of the nib by simply adjusting
> how far forward or back I slide them.  They're well worth it.
>
> As for quills, it is very easy to add a reservoir to a quill by taking something
> springy (either a slice of quill itself, or a narrow 1/2 inch long strip of
> aluminum from a soda can), bending it into an "S" and inserting it most of the
> way up into the quill (Rose Folsom shows how in the Calligrapher's Dictionary,
> as does the article in the Calligrapher's Handbook on cutting quills).  This
> holds more ink up inside the pen and controls how quickly it flows out.  I've
> read that this is perfectly authentic -- nothing new there!!!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Douglas Brownell       AKA     Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher,
> brownwell@home.com             Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,...
> San Diego, CA                         Barony of Calafia, Caid
> The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules.
> Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent.



- --------------BF4DD57C2B77B0C527CA0C22
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<HTML>
<B>Thomas, there are fountain (not cartridge) pens which provide sufficient
flexibility to do most period hands.&nbsp; The ones I've found are:&nbsp;
Pelikan MC-120 Deluxe Master Calligraphy Pen and the Rotring Art Pen series.&nbsp;
They are both expensive - the Pelikan being the most per pen - but they're
worth every penny.&nbsp; Both of these pens can handle pigmented ink, such
as Pelikan Fount India and Calli.&nbsp; If you'd like more information
on these pens, just let me know.&nbsp; :-)</B>
<BR><B>I think you were familiar only with Schaeffer and Osmiroid and Parker
calligraphy pens - all of which are good for beginners, but, since they're
neither flexible nor capable of handling pigmented ink, are unsuitable
for the production of SCA scrolls.</B>
<BR><B>The Pelikan and Rotring will produce excellent, properly formed,
permanently pigmented lettering for our work.</B><B></B>

<P><B>-Gwer Rychen von Bern-</B>

<P>Thomas Brownwell wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Lady Aslyn posed the question of whether a particular
kingdom used dip vs. dip
<BR>with reservoir vs. cartridge.&nbsp; I'd hazard a guess that *all* calligraphers
start
<BR>with the last and work their way toward the first.&nbsp; This is because
of the ease
<BR>and availability of cartridge pens, and the cantankerous nature of
most high
<BR>quality "dip" pens or feathers.

<P>So I have myself to ask why she'd ask in the first place.&nbsp; I presume
that it's
<BR>because there are a lot of scribes around her who use fountain pens
instead of
<BR>dip.&nbsp; Here in Caid I know that almost all of the competent calligraphers
use dip
<BR>pens of one kind or another, and I think that this is a matter of experience.
<BR>It is impossible to do many calligraphic florishes with a fountain
pen, so one
<BR>turns to the dip kind simply because they are a more capable tool for
producing
<BR>pretty writing.&nbsp; The primary disadvantage that I have found in
fountain pens is
<BR>that the tip is too broad to get a nice clean *thin* line out of them.&nbsp;
Many
<BR>medieval hands have thins strokes that are so narrow that they don't
show up in
<BR>the books, even in high quality zoomed-in photos.&nbsp; You can't do
that with any
<BR>cartridge pen unless you grind off the end of it, which I don't recommend
<BR>(there's usually not a lot of metal to play with, and if you mess up
you've
<BR>ruined an expensive writing implement).&nbsp; The second disadvantage
that I find
<BR>bothersome is that I can't press harder on the pen and get the nib
to flex.&nbsp; So
<BR>what?&nbsp; Well, that's how many hands in late Gothic, especially
Batarde (Bastard)
<BR>exaggerate thick lines.&nbsp; Finally, I can't continue writing with
a cartridge pen
<BR>when I tip it up onto one corner.&nbsp; This is absolutely crucial
for every hand I
<BR>know, from 6th C Uncial all the way to 16th C Italic (Humanist).&nbsp;
The more
<BR>flexible the nib, the more it can vibrate as it is drawn across the
page, which
<BR>pulls the ink down by capillary action.&nbsp; -- Can't do that with
a cartridge pen.

<P>As for the question of Reservoir versus None, that's a matter of (1)
which type
<BR>of commercial nib you use, and (2) personal preference.&nbsp; I *really*
like the
<BR>ones which are available for the Mitchell Roundhand Nibs.&nbsp; They
reduce the
<BR>frequency that I have to refill the pen.&nbsp; They allow me to write
with my paper
<BR>on a flat horizontal table without the danger of blotting ink all over
my work
<BR>accidentally.&nbsp; They control the flow of ink out of the nib by
simply adjusting
<BR>how far forward or back I slide them.&nbsp; They're well worth it.

<P>As for quills, it is very easy to add a reservoir to a quill by taking
something
<BR>springy (either a slice of quill itself, or a narrow 1/2 inch long
strip of
<BR>aluminum from a soda can), bending it into an "S" and inserting it
most of the
<BR>way up into the quill (Rose Folsom shows how in the Calligrapher's
Dictionary,
<BR>as does the article in the Calligrapher's Handbook on cutting quills).&nbsp;
This
<BR>holds more ink up inside the pen and controls how quickly it flows
out.&nbsp; I've
<BR>read that this is perfectly authentic -- nothing new there!!!

<P>------------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>Douglas Brownell&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AKA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher,
<BR>brownwell@home.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,...
<BR>San Diego, CA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Barony of Calafia, Caid
<BR>The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny
gules.
<BR>Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent.</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

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------------------------------

End of scribes digest V2 #133
*****************************