From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #129 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, July 1 1998 Volume 02 : Number 129 In this issue: [scribes]: re: tracing [scribes]: re: technical pens vs crow quills Re: [scribes]: re: tracing Re: [scribes]: What kind of gold/ink or paint? [scribes]: Re: tracing Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: re: tracing Re: [scribes]: re: tracing [scribes]: My doantion to the view RE: [scribes]: re: technical pens vs crow quills RE: [scribes]: parchment [long] Re: [scribes]: My doantion to the view Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: re: tracing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:45:14 -0300 From: Guy & Sharon Campbell Subject: [scribes]: re: tracing Hello again. How does one do pin-prick tracing without the powdered stuff filling in the entire area under the paper? Please? I tried tracing something for a scroll yesterday (140lb paper is a bit thick for light tables to be useful, which is why I don't generally trace), and the whole sheet is now covered with graphite dust, as are the table, the walls, a clarinet, not to mention the kitty footprints all through the house..... Thanks for any info, opinions, etc Hugs Felicity Blindshooter, in Mycghalh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:45:11 -0300 From: Guy & Sharon Campbell Subject: [scribes]: re: technical pens vs crow quills Greetings, all. There is a really nifty kind of brush, that I'm sure you more experienced scribes have already encountered, called a script liner....the brush part is 2cm long, and on a 20/0 size, 1/2mm wide tapering to a tiny point. I tried one out last night. Hee hee hee. I've never been able to get that narrow a line with a sharp pencil, much less a brush or pen! Has anyone, in fact, tried one of these? Hugs Lady Felicity Blindshooter of Wolfsgate, in Mycghalh, East Kingsdom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:54:34 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: tracing > Hello again. How does one do pin-prick tracing without the powdered stuff > filling in the entire area under the paper? Please? > > I tried tracing something for a scroll yesterday (140lb paper is a bit thick > for light tables to be useful, which is why I don't generally trace), and > the whole sheet is now covered with graphite dust, as are the table, the > walls, a clarinet, not to mention the kitty footprints all through the > house..... > > Thanks for any info, opinions, etc > > Hugs > > Felicity Blindshooter, in Mycghalh There's this cool stuff called tracing paper... =D I don't use a light table either, but I go through lots of tracing paper. You just lay it over whatever you're tracing from (photo of a manuscript, other drawing, etc), trace the lines with pencil (fairly heavily), then flip it over onto your paper (pencil side down) and rub the back of it with something with a hard edge (a coin works). The pencil marks get transferred... Just keep in mind that the image will be backwards. But you can always do the first transfer onto scratch paper, then do the process again... It's not a period method, but neither is using a box with fluorescent light bulbs in it! =) It's also quicker and neater than the prick-and-pounce method... Of course, I was once told by a judge in a competition that I really should learn to draw everything freehand. It was all I could do not to laugh in his face... though I must admit that the few things I've tried freehand have turned out pretty well. (point? what point? who said I had to have a point?) - --Muireann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:51:00 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: What kind of gold/ink or paint? In a message dated 98-07-01 03:50:31 EDT, sknouse@msuvx2.memphis.edu writes: << etween and around the four-lobed medallions is an area of gold that has decoration on it. Would anyone be able to hazard a guess at whether this is leaf gold or shell gold and if the dark detailing on top of the gold is ink or paint? I'm assuming it is on top of the gold because I have seen other examples where the dark detailing has been smudged off and a solid area of gold is now visable. I've considered doing a scroll with this kind of decoration and would like to go into it with some idea of what I'm doing. (go figure) Thanks in Advance -- Lady Mylisant de la Croix >> I am assuming that you mean Plate 33......I would suggest that it is paint on leaf (the area is much too large to not be). Ink doesn't have a binder suitable to make the black stay put. Now, for my fave medieval tip, get a garlic clove crush it and put it in a vessel place a baggie over it and let it sit for a couple of days. When the juice has parted from the pulp, take a small amount of the garlic juice and add it to your paint. Your paint will now stick to the gold. If you make a mistake clean it up right away, if you let it dry, you won't get it off easily.-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:11:01 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: tracing I have never had much luck with the pin prick method. Either on paper or fabrics. I always end up with a blurry mess. :-( If my paper is too thick to use my light box, I often find holding up to a sunlit window provides just enough extra light to allow me to get the job done. On those rare occasions when the light will not penetrate the paper no matter what..... I place my rough draft on top and trace my lines, pressing hard with a ballpoint pen. This imprints an outline (no color, just a dent) on my good paper that I can then follow. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:23:37 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill >>I am not sure I am familiar with white vine work. The only time I have used something that might be call that was a background filler and that was freehanded over a dark underpainting. Example: http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/details/AoAMF3-redSm.jpg Do you have a scanned example of white vine work. I would like to see how it is done.<< I don't have a scanner but there are numerous examples of white vine in "The Painted Page" and "Italian Renaissance Illuminations". Generally, it looks something like celtic knotwork in its over/under style for the vine, but it is a free flowing pattern rather than the more rigid knotwork. Also, it is a vine scrolling thru the design as it has leaves and flowers coming off of it, all done in white. The background is generally painted in red, green and blue with small triplets of white dots. There may be putti or miniatures combined with the vinework used as background. The url didn't work so I couldn't tell you if it's the same thing you've got. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:36:47 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: tracing >>through lots of tracing paper. You just lay it over whatever you're tracing from (photo of a manuscript, other drawing, etc), trace the lines with pencil (fairly heavily), then flip it over onto your paper (pencil side down) and rub the back of it with something with a hard edge (a coin works). The pencil marks get transferred... Just keep in mind that the image will be backwards. << Or if you want it in the same orientation, after tracing it take a soft pencil (2B or 3B) and cover the back of the tracing paper where the design is with pencil lead. Lay the leaded side down against the paper and trace over your original trace with the pencil again. The lead on the back side will transfer the design. One word of warning - don't try using that graphite carbon paper. It says it's erasable but it's not very. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:12:37 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: tracing Hi Gang, There is also some really nice stuff called "Saral Paper" that can be purchased in most hobby stores. It comes in a multitude of colors and does not smear like regular carbon paper does. It also erases if you don't follow your tracings exactly. Look into it. KHvS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:14:53 -0700 (PDT) From: John Blankenbehler Subject: [scribes]: My doantion to the view Well met good gentles and hello, Here is my contribution for view and comment: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7213/Karadoc.JPG Period pigments from Master John the Artificer. Osmiroid Pen & Ink. Based on Plate 40V. from the book of Kells (Circher). Attempted uncial hand, came out more .... what did she call that ..... insular majiscule. (I think, don't know 'hands' by sight yet) This is my third official scroll. It was NOT presented at the event because the recipient was NOT there. (So keep it quiet, eh) Again, comments are always wecome, I need criticism to get better and see where I can improve. I can't wait to see one of my scrolls presented. (I was there, throwing my own rule of one event a month out the window!) == In service to the people and crown of AEthelmearc, Piers Blackmonster http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7213 temptabundus adfecto scriptor Champion, House Firebrand _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:43:10 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy + chiara Subject: RE: [scribes]: re: technical pens vs crow quills =BBGreetings, all. There is a really nifty kind of brush, that I'm sure = you =BBmore experienced scribes have already encountered, called a script =BBliner....the brush part is 2cm long, and on a 20/0 size, 1/2mm wide ta= pering =BBto a tiny point. I tried one out last night. Hee hee hee. I've never= been =BBable to get that narrow a line with a sharp pencil, much less a brush = or =BBpen! Has anyone, in fact, tried one of these? Yup! In fact, I prefer this kind of brush for almost all my work. Usually I use a size 0 or 1. I like the fact that it holds a lot of=20 paint, so I can get nice long strokes, and by varying pressure, I=20 can do acanthus leaves in just a couple swipes. Even with larger sizes,=20 you can get a nice fine point (as long as it's a good quality brush) have fun with it! Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:55:59 -0400 From: "Gray, Lyle" Subject: RE: [scribes]: parchment [long] I did this wrong the last time. I meant to send it to the entire list... >On those rare occasions when the light will not penetrate the paper no matter >what..... I place my rough draft on top and trace my lines, pressing hard with >a ballpoint pen. This imprints an outline (no color, just a dent) on my good >paper that I can then follow. Since I don't have a light table, the above method is very similar to the method that I use for pricking a tracing. I don't simply prick the holes in the paper and then pounce the paper -- I prick the _work_ paper through the template, just heavily enough that I can see the marks on my good paper. Works great when your template is a photocopy, too... Lyle FitzWilliam Bergental, East lyle @ quodata . com Non animam contine. - -- Spam bait: postmaster@warez.eu.org, abuse@warez.phantom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:21:27 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: My doantion to the view Greetings Piers Blackmonster, As I think you will agree, a bit more practice is in order. But, this was a very nice scroll, too. You might consider making your lines a touch closer together and/or maybe change the size of your nib. It looked a bit on the thin side for as much white space you had. I am not an expert at this hand myself, but you might also look to the angle of the pen. For this hand, you need to have a very small percentage of angle. All I can say is to practice, practice, and practice some more. I am assuming you are also looking at all the picture books you can get your hands on. Try zeroxing a couple of pages from these books, make many copies of each page, get some tracing paper and then trace the texts. This is one of the best ways to learn a new hand. It will give you a good feel for the letter and word spacing, the line spacing, and the manipulation of the pen (if any). Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Middle Kingdom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:38:44 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Hi there. Lady Dairine wrote: "I have at times resorted to some odd substitutions for a light table. I have a little B & W television that I turn on its back and set to a blank channel with the sound off. I turn the brightness way up and put the artwork on the screen to trace. The static holds it in place. Sometimes I put a piece of frosted plexiglass from an old store display over the screen to make up for the curve." I don't recommend using a TV as a light table as you are facing down the barrel of a high-powered electron gun. It's one thing to use a modern shielded monitor 2-3 feet from your face, and it's another to have your hands and face within inches of an unshielded anode... Just a thought, unless you like kids with three eyes, webbed toes and funny ears... (just kidding -- you're more likely to suffer from an artificial sunburn, with the attendant effects later on). A number of my friends use a window or door. I like the idea of a jewelry display case with a fluorescent inside it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:03:07 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: tracing M Katarina suggested using "Saral Paper" in lieu of "Carbon Paper" because the latter doesn't erase. We need to be very careful and differentiate between "Carbon Paper", the stuff that leaves a blue/black mess, and Carbon Paper, artists paper that has carbon on it and nothing else. *That* kind of carbon paper is just like drawing with a pencil, and leaves exactly the same marks as a pencil. It's not so easy to find but it works great. Tetchubah says that she can't erase it. I've not had a problem with that (because I never make mistakes -- Not!), but I press very lightly on the carbon paper itself so that the carbon bits don't get deeply embedded into the paper in the first place. I suspect that the difficulty arises because we have to press harder than normal pencil drawings in order to go through our original and then the tracing paper... Try it out yourself to see if you can make it work :-) As for Pinpricks, I prick directly onto my original. If the paper is thick the prick won't go through, and if the pricks are inside the drawing, not outside, they get covered by paint or ink and disappear. Even if the prick marks do go through, or do not disappear completely, they are not distracting and in my opinion actually add a nice touch to the finished scroll. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #129 *****************************