From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #128 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, July 1 1998 Volume 02 : Number 128 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: parchment [long] [scribes]: What kind of gold/ink or paint? [scribes]: RE:Wording Re: [scribes]: Curves over compass lines [scribes]: Re: What kind of gold/ink or paint? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 17:24:46 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment [long] I wrote yesterday Steve Roylance wrote: > > Hi, > I have only so far found texts for grants of arms and charters as > documents. An example of a grant scroll from the 16th century follows. I > have not looked too far though and there is not much on the net. A quick search of the Labrynth at http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/ found many sources including 500k of chancery documents from the fifteenth century England in English (well what passes for English at that date). Netscape suggested it would take nearly 200 pages to print all of them. Here is a short extract (one document) from the collection (note the many uses of þ) 1417: Signet of Henry V By þe kyng: Worshipful fader yn god. We sende yow closed wiþin þis lettre a cedule contenyng þe names of certein maistres / for owr owne grete shippes Carrakes Barges and Balyngers to þe whiche maistres we haue granted annuitees / suche as is appointed vpon eche of hem: in þe same cedule / to take yerely of owre grante while þat vs lust: at owr Eschequer of westminstre / atte þe termes of Michelmasse and Ester by Euen porcions. Wherfore we wol and charge yow þat vnto eche of þe said maistres / ye do make / vnder owr grete seel beyng in yowre arde owr lettres patentes sauerales en due forme after þeffect and pour port of owr said (grant)e. yeuen vnder owr signet atte owr Castel of Tonque þe xij. day of Aoust: Note: [Calendared Kirby 808. Printed Ellis, 3rd ser., I.72-74. Grants recorded 12 Aug. 1417, CPR 1416-22, pp. 120-21.] as ever Thorfinn, Lochac, West Melbourne, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 02:46:52 -0500 From: Lady Mylisant Subject: [scribes]: What kind of gold/ink or paint? Greetings All, I have been looking through my newly acquired "Manuscript Painting at the Court of France: The 14th cent. (1310-1380)" by Avril and something caught my eye that I'm curious about and would like to know for future reference. On page 33 is a good example of what I have a question about. In between and around the four-lobed medallions is an area of gold that has decoration on it. Would anyone be able to hazard a guess at whether this is leaf gold or shell gold and if the dark detailing on top of the gold is ink or paint? I'm assuming it is on top of the gold because I have seen other examples where the dark detailing has been smudged off and a solid area of gold is now visable. I've considered doing a scroll with this kind of decoration and would like to go into it with some idea of what I'm doing. (go figure) Thanks in Advance - -- Lady Mylisant de la Croix Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies Purpure, two natural seahorses addorsed on a point pointed argent a crescent inverted sable and on a chief triangular argent a crescent sable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:09:30 -0400 From: Michael Perry Subject: [scribes]: RE:Wording Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) >>Yes there is. But what I am looking for is documentation of where others have found actual knighting scrolls.<< I'm sure the heralds on the list might know whether this is true or not, but I've been under the impression that period knighting ceremonies did *not* involve a scroll of any sort. The knighting ceremony itself was all there was to it as "Sir" was more of an honorific and did not necessarily confer nobility. I've seen period examples of Grants (usually involving land or the right to bear a coat of arms), and actual noble titles (particularly Barons), but nothing on knights. Admittedly, I haven't looked that hard. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid Greetings, What you can find as far as scroll wordings are period grants of arms. There was only one kind/level, not the award/grant/patent system we use. In many heraldry books you can find texts you can use. I made the AoA scroll for my lady Avelina, and modeled the text after a fifteenth century grant (in the Oxford Guide to Heraldry). I was amused when the same text was modified for use in John Littleton's Laurel scroll. One thing is that you probably won't find any texts dating before the late 15th century. Before that heraldry was not surrounded by nearly as many rules or sophistication. Kenrick Byrne, Eastern Crown Herald. No, not him, that's Ulric, Brigantia Principal Herald He's shorter, with glasses..... 8) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:40:09 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Curves over compass lines I just don't freehand things between tracing and using a compass and a ruler and a French curve and anything else that will give me the line I want, including the change in my pockets. Quarters make an excellent sized circle for miniatures... Miri > > In a message dated 6/30/98 1:25:32 PM, brownwell@home.com wrote: > > < or something similar for that? or am I completely missing the boat and they > freehanded the curves over the penciled compass lines? If so then I haven't a > prayer with my shaky hands].>> > > I don't really know if they had ruling pens, but I suspect not. I also > suspect that they did the knots freehand (without rulers). > > According to Mark van Stone (in "Ornamental techniques in Kells and its kin" > in the _Book of Kells_ (conference proceedings)), the compass drawn circles > were generally impressed into the vellum (though see Backhouse's _Lindisfarne > Gospels_ for layout done with something more substantial), and joined using > graduated curve-templates (think of the absolutely regular locks of hair on > the Echternach lion for an idea of their curve templates -- much like our > French curves, n'est-ce pas?). > > They may also have free-handed them, I'm sure. But a series of small French > curves would make this task much easier and regular. > > Eowyn, sitting home waiting for a computer desk to arrive > (I'm not sure I can afford their "sometime between 9 and 5" brand of free > delivery) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:02:01 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: What kind of gold/ink or paint? Ok, just a guess here..... Based on the few pieces I've seen in this style, I'd guess it's gold leaf on gesso. The designs are done by stamping, or drawing on top of the gold. Perhaps when the book was published, it was realized that this technique does not photograph well. I have seen pictures of illuminations that seem to have large areas covered in plain gold. When I had the opportunity to see the actual pieces, I was pleasantly surprised to find the stamped designs (including a host of tiny cherubs, each no larger than a thumb nail) residing in the gold. Perhaps the publishers added some pen work to their plates so that those looking at them would see more than a vast expanse of gold. I have seen a similar thing done on some Italian pieces. What appears in _The Painted Page_ to be intricate sepia colored pen work turned out in reality to be raised gold leaf. I was absolutely floored when I saw this. The lines are so fine that I almost missed it... until the light hit the piece just right. When I looked closer, it was obviously raised above the surface and gilded. If you're really curious and have time to wait for an answer, you could always try contacting the museum which holds the piece. The necessary information is listed in the credits. It's not quite the same as being able to examine the piece in person, but it could clear up some confusion. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #128 *****************************