From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #125 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 125 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill RE: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose RE: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Re: [scribes]: Light Tables Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill [scribes]: .pdf Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose RE: [scribes]: Award Medallions for AOA(was R.E. Scribes...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:29:12 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) >>Yes there is. But what I am looking for is documentation of where others have found actual knighting scrolls.<< I'm sure the heralds on the list might know whether this is true or not, but I've been under the impression that period knighting ceremonies did *not* involve a scroll of any sort. The knighting ceremony itself was all there was to it as "Sir" was more of an honorific and did not necessarily confer nobility. I've seen period examples of Grants (usually involving land or the right to bear a coat of arms), and actual noble titles (particularly Barons), but nothing on knights. Admittedly, I haven't looked that hard. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:24:53 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose >> Ok, simple question: What is it about patent leaf that makes it resist burnishing the way it does? I have used both patent and loose leaf, and while I haven't really tried to burnish the loose to the high gloss shine, it has been easier to burnish than patent.<< This isn't a real easy question to answer although I'll give it a shot - anyone else who thinks I'm off base is free to chip in their 2 cents. I guess the first question that I have to ask is are you using a size with the patent leaf? Nearly everything I've ever read or tried indicates that the only way to remove patent leaf from the backing material is by applying size to the section being gilded, wait till it's tacky, then apply the leaf. The size is stickier than what holds the leaf to the paper so it gets pulled off. The problem with using size, however, is that it's essentially glue. In order to get that nice high gloss burnish, you need to be able to "move" the gold with the burnisher. Gold is so soft that it will stick to itself and move under the preasure of the burnisher - so the more you burnish, the more it moves until it's stuck to itself in a nice even finish. With glue underneath it, though, it can't move, at least not much - not enough to get a high gloss. With loose leaf, you are essentially doing "water gilding". For panel gilding this usually means actually applying a water/alcohol mixture to the panel then applying the leaf while it's damp. For illumination, this means breathing on the gesso ground until it too is damp, then applying the gold. Since the water evaporates out from behind the gold (after all, the gold is actually permeable at that point as is the gesso and paper or vellum), it creates kind of a suction between the gold and gesso and that's all it needs to keep the gold adhered. When you burnish it you are again moving the gold, but since it's really held on there without much of anything it's free to move about and burnish nicely. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:13:14 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Greetings Tetchubah of Greenlake and the list: Well, I'll chip in my 2 cents here. I use the exact same gilding base for both Patent and Loose Leaf Gold, and lay them both exactly the same (except that I can cut my Patent Leaf into little squares and use a pair of tweezers to hold it while I "puff" on the base -- I use the back of an Exacto knife with a little nose oil for Loose Leaf). I have tried burnishing both, and sometimes I can get the Patent to burnish up nicely with the burnisher, but have found it really shines with just a good buffing with a piece of silk. I personally think that one reason Patent doesn't burnish as well as Loose is because of the amount of pressure used to make it adhere to the tissue paper it comes on. If you touch it with your fingers, it still comes off quite easily. It also might be a bit thinner and therefore, more fragile. I've never done the kind of Loose Leaf gilding you describe Tetchubah, so I don't have any frame of reference there, except for the breathing (or puffing, as I call it). Meisterin Katarina Helene (KHvS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:17:21 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) > > >>Yes there is. But what I am looking for is documentation of where others > have found actual knighting scrolls.<< I think there might be a reference on the Midrealm page http://www.midrealm.org under the stuff on Knights (they have this highly graphic filled, but lovely page attached to the Midrealm page) that has some of the actual ceremonies used here. It is my understanding (but I could be wrong) that they are based as closely as possible to actual recorded ceremonies. I have a copy of the MK Ceremonies Book at home and could look up the wordings there, if you'd like (I'm at work at the moment). KHvS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:20:34 -0400 (EDT) From: hollis@slic.com Subject: [scribes]: Light Tables Dear scribes, I am desperately in need of information about the design of light tables. I'm working on a rather large celtic knotwork carpet page, and my current light table is the living room end table. It's about a foot off the floor. For a 6'0" large guy, this gets... cramped... after a while :) Anyway... What I'm thinking is a sheet of plexiglass, either frosted or clear, perhaps 24" x 26". This would be set in a wood box with a fluorescent light fixture inside, with vents inside to let out the heat. Anyone with suggestions, I'd appreciate them. Hollis Once known as Ian Snowowl in days of yore. - ---------------------------- Hollis Easter hollis@slic.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead, anthropologist Yes, I did get a perfect score on my SAT-I's... See the picture at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2436/SAT52698.gif - ---------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:31:15 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Dear folks, It is my impression that, for most of our historical period, and in Western Europe, knighting was the ending of a sort of training period -- like an apprenticeship; in which case a written document would be more likely to accompanying squiring/apprenticing than knighting. My research tells me that, by around 1200, a ceremony for knighting had been codified. This date is contemporaneous with the emergence of heraldry. It is a distillation or interpretation of that ceremony we use. A document would only be drawn up in the case of a legal transaction, such as the transferral of land or the confirmation of rights (such as that of bearing arms). In the SCA, documents are drawn up to confirm, not rights or ownership, but rank and status. This is why I don't think we will find anything resembling a knighthood scroll with suitable words in period sources *during our historical period in Western Europe* . -- johannes v.n. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:35:45 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill > I usually will use whatever I think is better for the job. If I'm fine > lining on calligraphy, I'll usually use a crowquill. For outlining > illumination I'll use a technical pen. On illumination itself I generally > will use a 10/0 brush. I think the key is use whatever works for you. > > Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and things are tidied up. Miri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:57:46 EDT From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables In a message dated 6/30/98 10:28:59 AM, hollis@slic.com wrote: << Anyway... What I'm thinking is a sheet of plexiglass, either frosted or clear, perhaps 24" x 26". This would be set in a wood box with a fluorescent light fixture inside, with vents inside to let out the heat.>> That's essentially what i did to make my light box, except that I used double- strength glass, not plexiglass. Glass is very stiff and smooth, and for that size, would plexiglass flex? I put two flourescent light fixtures inside, and put holes in the sides for heat control. The glass slides in and out. That is, three of the four wooden sides are the same height, with a groove routed in it towards the top. The fourth side is shorter, and only goes up to where the groove is. So the glass slides out at the short side when I want to change the bulbs. it only took one evening at the local adult school workshop (I was taking woodshop at the time -- in high school in my day, girls just didn't take shop. So I had to wait until I was an adult and could take it as adult education class. I made a very nice record cabinet there, too). The electrical stuff took another hour or so, mostly getting the in-line on/off switch in place. Have fun! It is a useful article , not particularly difficult to make, and outrageously expensive to buy. Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:03:37 -0500 (CDT) From: ches Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables I just made one not too long ago. I went and looked at the sizes of the plexi and got fencing boards to cut them the same length and width of the glass. I then put peg board on the back to vent. I used 4 kitchen flourecent kits and bolted them to the peg board. Used sheet rock screws to attach the plexi to the board frame, not too tight. You will need to use about 8 screws for the backing to keep it from bowing from the weight of the lights. I could not find frosted plexi but I do recommend frosted glass that can be attached/detached at will so that if you need to use an exacto when needed. For now I cover the uncovered protions of the table with other paper so that I do not get any glare. For the cords I got a heavy duty power strip with an on off switch and plugged all the lights in. This way I can power it down with just one switch. :) Total Cost: 4 boards @ 1.99 each 1 36x36 plexi @ 12.00 4 kitches light sets @ 12.00 1 peg board (they came in only one size, hugh) 5.00 box of screw .99 total = 73.95 + tax This is my second one. The first one cost me 30.00, it is 18X18. The diff was the lights, the longer they are the more they cost. Ches On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 hollis@slic.com wrote: > Dear scribes, > > I am desperately in need of information about the design of light tables. > I'm working on a rather large celtic knotwork carpet page, and my current > light table is the living room end table. It's about a foot off the floor. > For a 6'0" large guy, this gets... cramped... after a while :) > > Anyway... What I'm thinking is a sheet of plexiglass, either frosted or > clear, perhaps 24" x 26". This would be set in a wood box with a > fluorescent light fixture inside, with vents inside to let out the heat. > > Anyone with suggestions, I'd appreciate them. > Hollis > Once known as Ian Snowowl in days of yore. > ---------------------------- > Hollis Easter > hollis@slic.com > "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." > -- Margaret Mead, anthropologist > > Yes, I did get a perfect score on my SAT-I's... See the picture at: > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2436/SAT52698.gif > ---------------------------- > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:22:59 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill >>I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and things are tidied up.<< Actually, I do it both ways. For white vine work I'll generally ink first and paint afterwards, then ink again where I think it needs it. This is because of the way I draw my white vine - I will generally create a repeatable pattern on tracing paper and copy it over to the scroll by flipping it over and over. This results in a lot of pencil lead build up on the tracing paper design which tends to create kind of a mess on the scroll. In large areas of white vine I tend to freehand the design which can result in lines I don't necesarily want. By inking first before I paint, I can erase all the extra lines and pencil lead particles and have a nice clean surface to paint on. If I didn't do this some of this would show throw the painted parts of the design. If I'm inking first I will always use a technical pen - the result is indistinguishable from a crow quill and I don't have to constantly redip my pen that way. For most other things I will paint first then ink later to tidy up and add some detail. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:18:06 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill > > I usually will use whatever I think is better for the job. If I'm fine > > lining on calligraphy, I'll usually use a crowquill. For outlining > > illumination I'll use a technical pen. On illumination itself I generally > > will use a 10/0 brush. I think the key is use whatever works for you. > > > > Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid > > I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about > one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before > they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, > paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and > things are tidied up. > > Miri I usually outline twice, once after drawing in lines with pencil but before painting, and again after painting. I outline before painting so that I can erase the pencil lines and that way I don't get smudges all over the paper. Then after I'm done, I go back and outline again, to clean up and define. It's a little extra work, but I think the end result is neater and saves me from erasing lots of pencil smudges. - --Muireann Ponte Alto, Atlantia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:18:06 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill > > I usually will use whatever I think is better for the job. If I'm fine > > lining on calligraphy, I'll usually use a crowquill. For outlining > > illumination I'll use a technical pen. On illumination itself I generally > > will use a 10/0 brush. I think the key is use whatever works for you. > > > > Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid > > I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about > one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before > they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, > paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and > things are tidied up. > > Miri I usually outline twice, once after drawing in lines with pencil but before painting, and again after painting. I outline before painting so that I can erase the pencil lines and that way I don't get smudges all over the paper. Then after I'm done, I go back and outline again, to clean up and define. It's a little extra work, but I think the end result is neater and saves me from erasing lots of pencil smudges. - --Muireann Ponte Alto, Atlantia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:20:09 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill > > I usually will use whatever I think is better for the job. If I'm fine > > lining on calligraphy, I'll usually use a crowquill. For outlining > > illumination I'll use a technical pen. On illumination itself I generally > > will use a 10/0 brush. I think the key is use whatever works for you. > > > > Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid > > I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about > one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before > they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, > paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and > things are tidied up. > > Miri I usually outline twice, once after drawing in lines with pencil but before painting, and again after painting. I outline before painting so that I can erase the pencil lines and that way I don't get smudges all over the paper. Then after I'm done, I go back and outline again, to clean up and define. It's a little extra work, but I think the end result is neater and saves me from erasing lots of pencil smudges. - --Muireann Ponte Alto, Atlantia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:30:38 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose >>Well, I'll chip in my 2 cents here. I use the exact same gilding base for both Patent and Loose Leaf Gold,<< What would that base be? I'm always looking for ideas. >>burnishing both, and sometimes I can get the Patent to burnish up nicely with the burnisher, but have found it really shines with just a good buffing with a piece of silk.<< I've never been able to detach the Patent by breathing on the gesso alone - I've always had to use a size. Maybe I'm using a particularly sticky brand of gold. I've tried burnishing it with everything I can think of - the result I get with silk isn't exactly what I'd define as "burnished" which to me means "mirror shiny". But yes, it does shine up nice but it still looks coarse - of course, it's shiny from the moment you lay it down. >>quite easily. It also might be a bit thinner and therefore, more fragile. I've never done the kind of Loose Leaf gilding you describe Tetchubah, so I don't have any frame of reference there, except for the breathing (or puffing, as I call it).<< My understanding is that the Patent is the same weight as the Loose leaf, so I doubt it's thinner. I don't know how they make Patent stick to the tissue behind it - I'm wondering if they might not be using some sort of adhesive to make it and that is also interfering with it burnishing. Anybody know? Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:39:53 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) In a message dated 98-06-30 12:30:29 EDT, Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com writes: << I'm sure the heralds on the list might know whether this is true or not, but I've been under the impression that period knighting ceremonies did *not* involve a scroll of any sort. >> Currently I have an enquiry into the Order of the Garter (the oldest) asking for any text regarding conveyance of Knighthood will let you all know-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:39:56 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill In a message dated 98-06-30 13:48:31 EDT, heather@pop.net writes: << I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and things are tidied up. Miri >> I outline in ink paint then re outline. The reason I do this is because I work in thinner consistency either with tempera or with very thin acrylic to eliminate gloss and get depth with succeding layers....the ink forms a little dam that will hold the colour where I want it until such time as it is able to dry. I then go back over the drawing to "crisp it up".The only exception is when I'm doing grisaille, as I don't use a pen at all.....I paint the thing about four times when all is said and done and the brush is a bit drier- JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:38:37 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables I have a home made light box that my former boyfriend made for me. It's essentially a 2' by 2' box made out of 1x4, with peg board as the backing for the box. On the top, he made a hinged lid out of some 1" sqare stock. For the surface we used 2 pieces of 1/8" white plexiglass or something like that (it may have been commercial light fixture covering). We needed the 2 pieces because it was too bendable otherwise. We just used contact cement around the edges to glue them together, and to glue the plexiglass to the lid. It has 2 flourescent fixtures in it that are about 18 inches long each. They're the kind of portable fixture that plugs in so we just got an extension cord and plugged them both into it, and made a small ditch along one side of the box so that the extension cord doesn't get in the way of the lid when it's closed. I just plug in the extension cord to turn it on. By having the hinged lid I can change the bulbs easily and the extension cord can be put inside the box when I'm not using it. For a box the size you're talking about I think you'd definitely need at least 2 florescent fixtures - they don't give off much light. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:39:55 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables In a message dated 98-06-30 13:28:59 EDT, hollis@slic.com writes: << Dear scribes, I am desperately in need of information about the design of light tables. I'm working on a rather large celtic knotwork carpet page, and my current light table is the living room end table. It's about a foot off the floor. For a 6'0" large guy, this gets... cramped... after a while :) Anyway... What I'm thinking is a sheet of plexiglass, either frosted or clear, perhaps 24" x 26". This would be set in a wood box with a fluorescent light fixture inside, with vents inside to let out the heat. >> I just repaired a light table made in the 50's for my student when she was working on this really cool scroll...... :) the table I worked on was enormous approx. 36" x 30" made of wood with no heat vent because by and large flourescent doesn't produce nearly the heat incandescent does. Two flourescent fixtures single bulb 36" back section was lined with white sheet metal and had a glass top with diffuser bars molded into the glass......was an expensive unit in its day was used by a draftsman(her dad). My suggestion would be to go to Home Depot or the like and ask for a fixture called a troffer (tro-pher) that has a diffuser rather than a grid(in this case a grate)It is intended to be a recessed light for suspended ceilings, so it's all self enclosed you only have to hook up a plug and switch entire cost around $40.00. Remove the diffuser and insert it upside down (smooth side up) and you're set....most come with the lamps too ( "U" shaped flourescent tube most of the time)-hope this helps-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:49:07 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Have you had any problems with the black outlines running into the paint and messing it up? Miri > > << I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about > one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before > they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, > paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and > things are tidied up. > > Miri > >> > I outline in ink paint then re outline. The reason I do this is because I work > in thinner consistency either with tempera or with very thin acrylic to > eliminate gloss and get depth with succeding layers....the ink forms a little > dam that will hold the colour where I want it until such time as it is able to > dry. I then go back over the drawing to "crisp it up".The only exception is > when I'm doing grisaille, as I don't use a pen at all.....I paint the thing > about four times when all is said and done and the brush is a bit drier- > JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:11:30 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy + chiara Subject: RE: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose =BB Ok, simple question: What is it about patent leaf that makes it =BBresist burnishing the way it does? I have used both patent and loose l= eaf, =BBand while I haven't really tried to burnish the loose to the high glos= s =BBshine, it has been easier to burnish than patent. =BB =20 =BB Inquiring minds want to know, =BB Kenrick I use 22k patent leaf with Gabriel Guild acrylic gesso sottile, and I have no trouble getting a mirror finish. I lay on 3 or 4 layers of gold, and burnish with glassine and then directly on the gold with an agate dogtooth. The only places I didn't get a high shine was in areas where I didn't get the gesso humpy enough. This was working on stonehenge paper= , which is prety absorbent, so it might not be as much of a problem on=20 parchment. I suspect the thinness of the gold is the major factor. Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:11:34 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy + chiara Subject: RE: [scribes]: Light Tables =BBI am desperately in need of information about the design of light tabl= es. =BB =BBAnyone with suggestions, I'd appreciate them. =BBHollis I have a neat book, published by Dover, called Make Your Own Artist's=20 Tools and Materials, by Vance Studley. It was published in 1979, so the supplies he mentions might be hard to find, but his suggestion for a light table is kinda interesting...here's an excerpt from his book: "Beach backrests can be converted into adjustable drawing or calligraphy=20 tables by removing the canvas and substituting a square or retangular=20 piece of 1/2" plastic plate. The plate is fastened to the vertical strut= s with shallow flat-head screws from the backside of the supports. I recomm= end plastic because of its lightness, and, more importantly, because with=20 little extra effort a drafting lamp can be clamped to the top edge for=20 illumination. The drafting lamp is flexible enough so that it can easily=20 be turmed to the underside of the plastic, thereby converting the surface= =20 into a light table. Opalescent plastic can be used for better light diffu= sion. When not in use the unit is easily collapsed, tucked under the arm, and whisked away." There is a picture in the book which makes this design more clear, but essentially you have an angled surface, instead of a flat one. The type=20 of chair he refers to is wooden and collapsible. If this makes no sense, and anyone wants me to try and describe it better,let me know.:) It's a neat book, only $9.95, I recommend it. Chiara da Ravenna =20 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:18:51 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Tetchubah, I am a lazy scribe and use a modern gilding base of 5 parts acrylic gesso (usually Liquitex) 4 parts acrylic gesso medium varnish (gloss) 1 part sugar syrup (about 1 tsp of sugar to a shot glass of distilled water) and a touch of red gouache from the tube for color I've found it works with almost all the metal leaves (except for composition leaf). It is VERY durable, bends with the papers, adheres well (even to vellum), and can be thinned if needed. It keeps for several years in a glass jar or plastic container. Hope this helps. I do have a more traditional gesso recipe, but it takes a bit longer to make up. I had a mundane instructor teach me how to use even just plain acrylic gesso from the jar to gild with. Of course, there is also gum ammoniac done in several layers until it is as raised as gesso. By the way, it is the sugar water in the gesso mix above that requires the breathing to make the gold stick. KHvS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:32:33 EDT From: Varju@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables The light table I use is actually designed for quilters. It looks a lot like a small plastic table on about 3-4 inch legs and I merely place a flourecent light fixture, like you would use in the kitchen under it. It works quite well, unless the cat crawls under it and blocks my light. Noemi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:22:06 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Greetings Peinteurs & Ecrieurs I draw in all my outlines first for most illumination I do. I find that this gives me crisper outlines on curves and straight lines than painting first then outlining. Like Tetchubah, though, I do usually go in afterward and clean up any edges where I've accidentally painted onto (but *not* usually over) the lines. If you look at examples of most of the Celtic illumination you'll find that the outlining was done first especially in the knotwork, then painted after (based on what half-finished pages look like). I presume that Vine and Leaf is the same, because the vine is the primary part of the picture and actually looks fine without the additional paint filling in the spaces (early vine and leaf, like in the Decorated Letter, plate 22) actually has very little paint filling in the intermediate or negative spaces. I may be making a big leap here, but I've found that if I'm working on the outline of a knot or a vine, I'm just as comfortable doing it directly with a pen as I am with a pencil (assuming I have prickings or (miss-the-dots) dots or a basic shape penciled in already), and if I, a lowly amateur who does this a few times a year, can freehand these knots with no more error (or perhaps, with *the same* error) as the pro, then how much easier would a more experienced artisan find it ? It's a guess, and can certainly be countered with examples of half-finished pages where there are clearly pencil/lead lines, but I'm guessing that a certain amount may have been penned directly onto the page. This applies especially to the Celtic stuff, where they used compasses to do the perfect sprirals -- why pencil in a curve, then use the same compass to pen it in again? [Eowyn, did they use ruling pens or something similar for that? or am I completely missing the boat and they freehanded the curves over the penciled compass lines? If so then I haven't a prayer with my shaky hands]. Anyway, with a good light table I'm lazy and save time by doing half the work by just starting with the pen from the beginning. I'm also brave, adventurous, daring, footloose & fancy-free and, of course, modest so your experiences will undoubtedly vary :-) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:31:03 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose This topic came up just a while ago. I think we settled on the fact that Patent is a little thinner (10-15%?) than Loose, and that this affects it's ability to burnish without more layers. If one uses size to do Patent, and moist gesso to do Loose, the differences in burnishability is undoubtedly due to the substrait. I don't think that the gold's ability to be pushed around is hindered by the size, but rather that the size bleeds through the leaf and permeates it, making the surface have a different consistency than the gessoed gold. Remember that gold leaf is about 300-500 *atoms* thick, unimaginably thin (Rutherford's was about 400 atoms thick in his 1906 experiments). This means that air molecules, glue molecules, light -- pretty much anything -- can get through it with no problem. The bottommost layer does have to be tacked down (hence the sugar in the gesso), but all of the rest of the gold has to be free to be pushed around, which it isn't for size because of the permeation of the glue into the metal. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:00:36 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose In a message dated 98-06-30 15:22:17 EDT, meistern@netusa1.net writes: << Tetchubah, I am a lazy scribe and use a modern gilding base of 5 parts acrylic gesso (usually Liquitex) 4 parts acrylic gesso medium varnish (gloss) 1 part sugar syrup (about 1 tsp of sugar to a shot glass of distilled water) and a touch of red gouache from the tube for color >> I'm curious, does the varnish act as a stiffening agent? I have found that the acrylic gesso just doesn't get firm enough and therefore doesn't give a good enough seat to the leaf. However, that might be what is needed for patent as the gesso "moves" rather than the leaf when water gilding and therefore accomplishes tha same thing?-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:00:39 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Light Tables In a message dated 98-06-30 15:36:44 EDT, Varju@aol.com writes: << It works quite well, unless the cat crawls under it and blocks my light. Noemi >> shave the cat-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:00:41 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill In a message dated 98-06-30 16:25:32 EDT, brownwell@home.com writes: << I presume that Vine and Leaf is the same, because the vine is the primary part of the picture and actually looks fine without the additional paint filling in the spaces (early vine and leaf, like in the Decorated Letter, plate 22) >> It really depends on the artist Thomas, I've seen examples where the outline of the leaves were lined in after the colour or gold goes down. In most of these cases, it also appeared that the lining was done by brush and not pen.....and then I've seen it done the other way too, and then it looked more like a pen than brush....JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:00:35 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill In a message dated 98-06-30 14:53:29 EDT, heather@pop.net writes: << Have you had any problems with the black outlines running into the paint and messing it up? Miri >> No I usually make sure the ink is dry (I use Rotring tech pens and art pens the ink is surprisingly water resistant....) I work wet but not soupy, it is a little wetter than say when you're doing wet on wet blending with gouache. When doing tempera it is wet but more viscous than water-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:05:21 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill I haven't, as long as the paint is dry when I go back to outline... - --Muireann > Have you had any problems with the black outlines running into the paint > and messing it up? > > Miri > > > > << I usually use a tech pen for outlining illumination. I'm puzzled about > > one thing, though: folks keep implying they do the outlining before > > they do the painting. I trace things out with a mechanical pencil, > > paint, and then outline. That way I don't paint over outlines, and > > things are tidied up. > > > > Miri > > >> > > I outline in ink paint then re outline. The reason I do this is because I work > > in thinner consistency either with tempera or with very thin acrylic to > > eliminate gloss and get depth with succeding layers....the ink forms a little > > dam that will hold the colour where I want it until such time as it is able to > > dry. I then go back over the drawing to "crisp it up".The only exception is > > when I'm doing grisaille, as I don't use a pen at all.....I paint the thing > > about four times when all is said and done and the brush is a bit drier- > > JimBear > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:13:26 -0500 (CDT) From: ches Subject: [scribes]: .pdf OOC Adobe is offering today only the program that creates the .pdf files. If you have stuff on your web site that you would rather it not be altered text wise this is the way to go. http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readerwriter.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:18:40 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose >>This topic came up just a while ago. I think we settled on the fact that Patent is a little thinner (10-15%?) than Loose, and that this affects it's ability to burnish without more layers.<< Actually, I think we were discussing regular leaf versus "double" leaf at the time, both of which come in Patent and Loose varieties. Double leaf is 10-15% heavier than regular leaf. However, I was curious and since I was going to call Easy Leaf anyway today to order some white gold leaf I asked them while I was on the phone. They say that there is no difference in weight between the Patent and Loose leaf - one is just stuck to the backing tissue. I usually will apply about 2-3 layers of gold even when using Patent or loose leaf, so I don't think that the thickness has much to do with it. But I think you're on point with the size underneath mixing with the gold particles and sort of clogging up the burnishing process. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:41:31 -0700 From: "Bj & Jane Tremaine" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Award Medallions for AOA(was R.E. Scribes...) As far as I know this is a sumptuary tradition, not law. Lady Jana CAID,Calafia, Drafn, Blackened Pot > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scribes@castle.org [mailto:owner-scribes@castle.org]On > Behalf Of FITCHYBEAR@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 1998 9:36 PM > To: yllaria@compuserve.com > Cc: scribes@castle.org > Subject: Re: [scribes]: Award Medallions for AOA(was R.E. Scribes...) > > > In a message dated 98-06-27 12:50:24 EDT, yllaria@compuserve.com writes: > > << > We have the same sumptuary custom in Caid, with the exception that a > circlet holding on a veil is a fillet, and therefore jewelry, and anyone > can wear a fillet. So it's not always a good indicator of > whether a woman > has an AoA or not. > > Lady Yllaria of Wildewode > Barony of the Angels, Caid > > Dana Theis > Glendale, California > > >> > Actually Yllaria, Caid has no sumptuary laws.....JimBear > ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #125 *****************************