From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #124 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 124 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Award Medallions for AOA(was R.E. Scribes...) Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Re: [scribes]: Wording (long) [scribes]: Patent vs Loose [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Re: [scribes]: parchment [scribes]: Re: Wording (long) RE: [scribes]: parchment [long] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 16:32:40 PDT From: ercil@astrid.upland.ca.us (E. Howard-Wroth) Subject: Re: [scribes]: Award Medallions for AOA(was R.E. Scribes...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:45:06 -0400 From: "Dorinda E Courtine-White" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) - --0__=r33NZ5t48t54omuOVJw1TzdFVoj2leSPp3FlXiA2jrMkdxZWjiE7MduC Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline - ---------------------- Forwarded by Dorinda E Courtine-White/Auto/Cummins on 06/30/98 05:48 AM --------------------------- 06/30/98 06:42 AM Dorinda E Courtine-White Dorinda E Courtine-White Dorinda E Courtine-White 06/30/98 06:42 AM 06/30/98 06:42 AM To: gael@renstore.com cc: Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) (Document link not converted) >I was surprised to learn that you were not given the text along with the >knighting scroll. In Atenveldt we are given instructions to use the the >text in the Kingdom Scribes Handbook making the appropriate changes for >date, recipient, blazon and soverigns. We can make minor changes _only_ >to beginnings, greetings, and endings. [snip] >How is this done in other kingdoms? I've seen some very personal >wordings in scrolls from - --0__=r33NZ5t48t54omuOVJw1TzdFVoj2leSPp3FlXiA2jrMkdxZWjiE7MduC Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =C6thelmearc by Lady Eibhlin ni Chaoimh. Are all >=C6thelmearc scrolls thus or do you also have standard text? We have no standard texts here in AEthelmearc. There is a book (from t= he East Kingdom actually) with some sample wordings, but we are expected t= o come up with our own wordings for the most part. I have never received= even suggestions. The scrolls all have to have the same info - at a minimum the recipients name and award, the Royalty giving the award, an= d the date and event at which the award are given should be worked in the= re somewhere, but I have never seen a scroll returned for being incomplete= . I have seen the Royalty shocked once or twice at "Their" words, but such = is the price of freedom! :) While I agonize over wording, I do enjoy being able to start with any letter I want and being able to customize wording to fit the space available while keeping the calligraphy at a size that works well for t= he piece. Dorinda Courtenay = - --0__=r33NZ5t48t54omuOVJw1TzdFVoj2leSPp3FlXiA2jrMkdxZWjiE7MduC-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:18:42 +0100 From: David Columbus Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (long) >Dear Franchesca. > >I was surprised to learn that you were not given the text along with the >knighting scroll. In Atenveldt we are given instructions to use the the >text in the Kingdom Scribes Handbook making the appropriate changes for >date, recipient, blazon and soverigns. We can make minor changes _only_ >to beginnings, greetings, and endings. > >As these are the words of the King we can not take the liberty to put >words in His Royal mouth. We can't embelish "pleased" to "very >pleased" when he may barely know the person. Occasionally, the King or >Queen will have special wording for a scroll because they are close to >the recipient. > >How is this done in other kingdoms? I've seen some very personal >wordings in scrolls from =C6thelmearc by Lady Eibhlin ni Chaoimh. Are all >=C6thelmearc scrolls thus or do you also have standard text? > >Lady Dairine >http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/AtenScrollTexts.shtml When I learned scribing in the East (and then in AEthelmearc) we were required to put five items on a scroll: The Address All shall know... Intitulation We, =ABking & Queen=BB of =ABwhereever=BB Notification having heard of the work of the =ABrecipient=BB Disposition do by these letters Award him arms Corroboration Done by Us this =ABdate=BB at =ABplace=BB Other than that, we are free to create our own wording as long as we include all of these items. A scribe could place these items in any order and re-word them in any manner. This has allowed scribes to create some of the most interesting awards I have ever heard (and seen). We have never been told that a scroll must be worded in such-and-such a manner although those texts exists as examples for new scribes. I do know of scribes in the East and AEthelmearc that believe that the wordings should be adhered to with only minor changes. I have even gone as far as doing award pieces (they can't be called scrolls) that have no words on them at all. Yet they still embody they will of the Royals that the person received that award. One was an Aztec Codex using pictograms and the other was an oil painting with words only in a small scroll at the bottom (titling the piece and giving room for signatures). A few people told me these would not have been allowed in some kingdoms. I have done some pieces that just cry out for distinctive wordings (like making an Arabic piece sound 'Arabic'). I would have found it difficult to do the Arabic piece talking about the recipient in the manner: ***** Inasmuch as Our subject Whitefeather has demonstrated excellence and knowledge in the Arts and Sciences, We, Timothy and Gabrielle, King and Queen of the East, are pleased to admit her into Our Order of the Maunche. instead of; Whitefeather, a shining example of our realm whose precence eclipses the moon and is more beautiful than the sun ***** I have a some questions to scribes in kingdoms where you must adhere to a =ABstandard=BB wording. Is there anything you're allowed to do to diverge from these wordings or is there no give and take in this matter? Do you need the permission of the Royals to change any wordings? And do these restrictions apply to the type of illumination as well? Never having had any restrictions, I have no idea what this would be like= =2E Christofano ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:12:18 -0400 From: Michael Perry Subject: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:11:47 -0400 From: Michael Perry Subject: [scribes]: Patent vs Loose Greetings, Ok, simple question: What is it about patent leaf that makes it resist burnishing the way it does? I have used both patent and loose leaf, and while I haven't really tried to burnish the loose to the high gloss shine, it has been easier to burnish than patent. Inquiring minds want to know, Kenrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:36:37 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment Good Morning Franchesca/Ches: Personally, I have done only two Knighting scrolls -- one for our now deceased King, Jafar al Safa (done on Duke Sir Shaden's hand-made paper in mock Arabic script and using a page from a Persian manuscript); and one for my apprentice, Sir Antonio Cellini (using a page from the Manchester Bible as model for script and style done on some very fine lamb vellum). I have recently purchased some black-dyed kid vellum from Rick Cavasin and can hardly wait to try it. It is like holding a piece of soft, yet firm fine cloth!! Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Middle Kingdom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:16:37 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Wording (long) >>How is this done in other kingdoms? I've seen some very personal >>wordings in scrolls from =C6thelmearc by Lady Eibhlin ni Chaoimh. Are a= ll >>=C6thelmearc scrolls thus or do you also have standard text? >> >>Lady Dairine >>http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/AtenScrollTexts.shtml > Eibhlin here As others have mentioned, there are several criteria to be met when writi= ng=0Awordings for AEthelmearc scrolls. Once those are met... you have to fill up the text block with something ;-) Sometimes I am lucky and know the recipient. That's when I can really=0Ap= ersonalize the piece. I always try to find out something about the recipi= ent=0Athat makes the wording seem special to *them*. Is there something t= hey always=0Acarry, say or wear? How about an action they are well known = for (wearing court=0Agarb to clean up after feast... volunteering at trol= l at every group's=0Aevent... etc) Don't let Dorinda pull the wool over anyone's eyes ;-) She has recently written most appropriate and lovely words for pieces Aen= gus=0Aand I received. If she struggles, it certainly doesn't come across = in the=0Afinished scroll. Something I've been known to do on occasion is look to the words of someo= ne=0Awho gets paid to write for inspiration. Pick up just about any writt= en text=0Aand see how you can twist it into a wording. Of course, the Bib= le works rather=0Awell.... but usually I will pick up whatever novel is s= itting out of the=0Abookshelf. It was a complete and total shock to find = out this is rather easy=0Ato do. When my muse isn't working and a I'm tot= ally stumped, this is where I=0Ago. It also makes a fun exercise for scribal get togethers. Especially when y= ou=0Agive the verbally gifted person something silly like a phone book or= store=0Aadvertisement to work from. Don't be surprised when they come up= with a=0Abeautiful wording based on it though ;-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:22:59 -0400 From: "Knott, Deanna" Subject: RE: [scribes]: parchment [long] (Preface: Please note that I don't really approve of "me too!" posts, but in this case I had too!) I was sitting around with my lord one night and we were talking about scroll texts. We were going through a phase where we were trying to make every one of them funny (we're in the East. we write our own.) I said,'Why di they all have to be funny?' Well, he took that to heart and when he got the assignment for my AOA, this is the text he used!! It is a big scroll with tiny calligraphy. I will bring it to work (when it stops raining here in New England) and scan it so y'all can see it. They changed the wording on the scroll. This historical example is a grant of arms from the King of Arms. My scroll (I think I am the only person who has an AoA with the word 'grant'(small g) on her scroll :-) is written from our King of Arms point of view but, it was made obvious that the award was from TRM. It is tres cool, IMHO. Yours, Avelina, Lady Keyes AoA,PoB, QHD,QHD Barony of the Bridge People's Republic of the East http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 > ---------- > From: Steve Roylance[SMTP:roylance@corplink.com.au] > Sent: Tuesday,June 30,1998 12:49 AM > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment [long] > > Hi, > I have only so far found texts for grants of arms and charters as > documents. An example of a grant scroll from the 16th century follows. I > have not looked too far though and there is not much on the net. > > Of note that this is in English, one I saw from 1480s was in Latin and the > several royal charters I have are in Latin even in 1670, its the > proclimation > raising the Earl of Norfolk to Duke of Norfolk is nearly 3000 words (three > thousand), by Charles II. > > This was transcribed by Lady Leonie de Grey from a photo in the Oxford > Book > of Heraldry. > > To all Nobles and Gentills these present letters?] redyng heryng or seyng > Gilbert Dethick als Norrey principall herauld and king of Armes of the > north > p[ar]tes of this realme of England from the ryver of Trent Northward > sendeth > dew and hwmble commendation and greting. Equite willeth and reason > ordenith > that men vertuous be by theire merytes and good renowne rewarded not > aloniy > theire p[er]sons in this mortall lyfe so brief and transitory but also > after > them those that shalbe of theire bodyes desendid to be In all places of > honor > with other nobles and gentills accepted and taken by certeyne ensignes and > demonstancys of honor and nobless that is to saye blason heal me and > Tymber[?] to thende that by theire ensamples other may the more enforce > them > selves to have pleacrance to use theire dayes in feates of armes and werk > vertuous to~et there nowne of auncyent nobless in theire signes and > posterities and therfore I the said Norrey kinge of armes not alonly by > the > common renow me but also by the reporte and wittnes of dyvers worthy to be > taken of worde and credence am plainly advertised and enformed that George > Toke of Worcestershire gentillman [and?] desendid of a howse undehmed and > hath at all tyme used hym self so manfuliy and discretly and inspecially > under Therle of warwyk as then the kings Ma [jesty] leftenant at the > battaill > of Mustelbrough in Scotland so that he is well worthy in all placys of > honor > with other nobles and gentills to be accepted and taken by certayne > ensignes > and demonstancys of honor and nobless that is to saye Armes, and for the > remembraunce of the same by vertu authorytie and power annexed attributed > geven and graunted by the kinge ow soverayne lordes highnes to me and to > me > once of Norrey kynge of Armes I have devised geven and grawnted to the > saide > George Toke gent and to his posteritie the Armes and Creste in maner as > herafter foloweth that is to say Asur a fesse on a canton goled a Iyons > pawe > Rasy of the felde armed geules upon his healme on a torse golde and asur > an > Ebecks hed rasy asur tusked horned aboute his neck two gemelles gold > langued > and snowted geules manteled geuls dobled silver as more plainnly apereth > depicted in the margent To have and to holde to him and his posteritie and > they it to use and enjoye for evermore. In wittnes wherof I the saide > Norrey > king of armes have set therunto my seale Geven and graunted at New CasteL > upon Tyne the syxte daye of October in the ffrste yere of the reigne of > our > souerayne Lorde Edward the syxte by the grace of god King of england > ffrance > and Ireland defendor of the faith and of the Church of England and Ireland > under Christe the Supreme hedd. > > Franchesca Havas wrote: > > > > When I first joined the list you all were at the very end of a parchment > > discussion. I have been given an order for another knight's scroll and > would > > like to do it on this piece of goat parchment. I would like to hear from > any > > and all that have worked on this medium before or heard of someone that > has > > worked on this medium before. > > > > On another note I would like to know if anyone has done knighting > scrolls > > and where you got your script from. Are there any sources for actual > > knight's scrolls in the SCA period-time frame? > > > > Thanks! > > Ches > ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #124 *****************************