From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #123 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 123 In this issue: Re: [scribes]:Watercolors Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts [scribes]: Gold leaf types [scribes]: parchment Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Re: [scribes]:Watercolors Re: [scribes]: parchment [long] Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) [scribes]: Kid Parchment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:57:34 -0700 From: "Gael Stirler, SCA Lady Dairine" Subject: Re: [scribes]:Watercolors Anna Wrote-- >I just wanted to thank you for your wonderfull letter, it was exactly the >thing I was looking for and I had no idea you could make gouache by >adding white, if it isn't to much of a hassle, could you be more specific? Dear Anna, Gouache is made by adding opaciters to the transparent pigments in watercolor. Usually that is white. However some of the pigments are already opaque and don't need anything added. Examples are found in the earth colors. Most notibly Yellow Ochre, Red Earth, Indian Red, Raw Sienna, and Raw Umber. To a lesser degree these colors are also opaque; Cobalt or Cerulean Blue, Prussian Blue, Lamp Black, and Burnt Sienna and Burnt Umber. Some pigments are made from dyes. In order to make them substantial enough to be made into paint they are used to dye a clear particle called a Lake (comes form the same root word as lacquer). These very transparent paints are your Crimson Lake, Ultamarine, Viridian, Van Dyke Brown, and Lemon Yellow. Since I like the effect of a mixture of transparent and opaque paints, I prefer to mix my colors then add a Zinc White or Chinese White to achieve the shade I want rather than use commercial gouache. Gouaches already have the white in them so they don't mix well. I do buy white as a gouche because it is so dense and the tubes don't dry out so fast. As far as color fastness is concerned, it is the pigment that controls the colorfastness not the carrier. So contrary to the popular opinion, high quality watercolors are as fast as gouache. Most of all have fun and let your muse guide you. Lady Dairine mor o u'Higin ~:-) Gutenberg School of Scribes http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/scribes.shtml - -- Chivalry Sports Renaissance Store now has its own domain name. Look for us now at http://RenStore.com for the best in Medieval, Renaissance, and Fantasy Merchandise. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:15:24 EDT From: Elyramere@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll Elyramere here, For this I need to stop lurking,....I love that first scroll that you did Tetchubah, it's perfect to me after 16 years. Besides, it's a matter of pride(alright, a little vanity) that I love to have prototypes. That means that there will always be more for the next lucky soul(wouldn't it be a little sad if someone had to say they had the last thing ever made by someone). I continue to feel quite honored and thankful that I was the first. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:01:04 -0700 From: "Gael Stirler, SCA Lady Dairine" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Dear Thorfinn Thank you for sharing your pages with us. I liked them so much I have added a link on my scribes website at http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/scribelinks.shtml I will also refer to it in my classes. Lady Dairine Dean of the Gutenberg School of Scribes Tir Ysgithr, Atenveldt Thorfinn wrote: > I ask beginners to start with the Carolingian hand. It uses lots of white > space and it is similar to some modern handwritings so it is not a big step > from how you may write anyway. So have a look at my ductus pages at > http://avoca.vicnet.net.au/~anachronauts/scribal/index.htm > for some calligraphic starter material and practice. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:00:20 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy + chiara Subject: [scribes]: Gold leaf types Someone asked about this awhile ago... Moon gold is gold leaf that is 21 or 22 karats. Rosenoble (also called Rosanoble or red gold) is 23.5-23.75 karats. Lemon gold is 18 karats. There are other designations, but the names vary depending on the manufacturer; these three seem to be more or less universal. BTW, the Sepp Leaf catalog, (where I got this info) also tells how many grams per 1000 leaves for each type of leaf. Does anyone know what Cennini weight gold would be under this scale? Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:42:07 -0500 From: "Franchesca Havas" Subject: [scribes]: parchment When I first joined the list you all were at the very end of a parchment discussion. I have been given an order for another knight's scroll and would like to do it on this piece of goat parchment. I would like to hear from any and all that have worked on this medium before or heard of someone that has worked on this medium before. On another note I would like to know if anyone has done knighting scrolls and where you got your script from. Are there any sources for actual knight's scrolls in the SCA period-time frame? Thanks! Ches ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:16:28 -0700 From: "Gael Stirler, SCA Lady Dairine" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Thomas Bownwell writes-- >Another possibility is that the amount of ink >that flows from the pen. When I outline I use >Rapidograph pens, and I use the *very* smallest >one I can which is the 000, 3x0 or 0.25 mm tip. >Remember that these lines are usually supposed >to be very subtle, just barely highlighting the >transition from one color to another. If you don't >overdo it by using a nib that's too wide the effect >will be better, not worse. I beg to differ, the lines in some manuscripts are very fine and even seem to be just made by a thin pencil but on others they are so promenient I can only conclude that they were drawn with a brush. For example, look at this page from The Day of Judgement Folio 20r. http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/details/knightswspears.gif The lines are very straight but they are way out of plumb (not 90 degree angles in the corners) I'm sure it is a mistake, but, there it is. I seem to learn more from the period examples of mistakes than from those that are perfectly correct. Even on celtic knotwork of infinitely fine detail, I am hard pressed to believe that the scribes of the time use technical pens. I might believe crow quills but even they are tempermental. I believe that much of what we see is done with very fine sable brushes and a steady hand. A small brush will hold more ink than a small quill and you can use it with a raised ruler (pennies work great). Having said this I confess that I prefer to use a very radical technique. After the calligaphy is done and I have roughed in the layout in pencil, I draw the lines with a Micro Uniball or a Fine Uniball ($1.49 at Office Max). Then I erase the lines with a kneaded eraser. I take my finished line art to Kinko's and I have it photocopied on 80 lb, cream-colored bristol. I make several copies in case of mistakes in the painting. Then I paint up the scroll, putting in all manner of details in paint as I go. Photocopy toner is a water resistant plastic ink. It never bleeds and the lines don't get lost in the paint. It can be erased if necessary with an ink eraser. My chosen area of scribe work is in designing the prommisories and other scrolls that are reproduced and painted by hand. If you would like to see some of my work, here is my illumination teaching site. http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/scribes.shtml Thank you Lady Dairine mor o hUigin Gutenberg School of Scribes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:36:26 -0700 From: "Gael Stirler, SCA Lady Dairine" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Dear Franchesca. I was surprised to learn that you were not given the text along with the knighting scroll. In Atenveldt we are given instructions to use the the text in the Kingdom Scribes Handbook making the appropriate changes for date, recipient, blazon and soverigns. We can make minor changes _only_ to beginnings, greetings, and endings.=20 As these are the words of the King we can not take the liberty to put words in His Royal mouth. We can't embelish "pleased" to "very pleased" when he may barely know the person. Occasionally, the King or Queen will have special wording for a scroll because they are close to the recipient.=20 How is this done in other kingdoms? I've seen some very personal wordings in scrolls from =C6thelmearc by Lady Eibhlin ni Chaoimh. Are all= =20 =C6thelmearc scrolls thus or do you also have standard text? Lady Dairine http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/AtenScrollTexts.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:49:02 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]:Watercolors In a message dated 98-06-29 19:10:17 EDT, chivalry@goodnet.com writes: << Gouache is made by adding opaciters to the transparent pigments in watercolor. Usually that is white. >> Just a note it can be done by adding whiting which acts more like cornstarch does.....thickens but doesn't really affect the colour-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:49:38 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment [long] Hi, I have only so far found texts for grants of arms and charters as documents. An example of a grant scroll from the 16th century follows. I have not looked too far though and there is not much on the net. Of note that this is in English, one I saw from 1480s was in Latin and the several royal charters I have are in Latin even in 1670, its the proclimation raising the Earl of Norfolk to Duke of Norfolk is nearly 3000 words (three thousand), by Charles II. This was transcribed by Lady Leonie de Grey from a photo in the Oxford Book of Heraldry. To all Nobles and Gentills these present letters?] redyng heryng or seyng Gilbert Dethick als Norrey principall herauld and king of Armes of the north p[ar]tes of this realme of England from the ryver of Trent Northward sendeth dew and hwmble commendation and greting. Equite willeth and reason ordenith that men vertuous be by theire merytes and good renowne rewarded not aloniy theire p[er]sons in this mortall lyfe so brief and transitory but also after them those that shalbe of theire bodyes desendid to be In all places of honor with other nobles and gentills accepted and taken by certeyne ensignes and demonstancys of honor and nobless that is to saye blason heal me and Tymber[?] to thende that by theire ensamples other may the more enforce them selves to have pleacrance to use theire dayes in feates of armes and werk vertuous to~et there nowne of auncyent nobless in theire signes and posterities and therfore I the said Norrey kinge of armes not alonly by the common renow me but also by the reporte and wittnes of dyvers worthy to be taken of worde and credence am plainly advertised and enformed that George Toke of Worcestershire gentillman [and?] desendid of a howse undehmed and hath at all tyme used hym self so manfuliy and discretly and inspecially under Therle of warwyk as then the kings Ma [jesty] leftenant at the battaill of Mustelbrough in Scotland so that he is well worthy in all placys of honor with other nobles and gentills to be accepted and taken by certayne ensignes and demonstancys of honor and nobless that is to saye Armes, and for the remembraunce of the same by vertu authorytie and power annexed attributed geven and graunted by the kinge ow soverayne lordes highnes to me and to me once of Norrey kynge of Armes I have devised geven and grawnted to the saide George Toke gent and to his posteritie the Armes and Creste in maner as herafter foloweth that is to say Asur a fesse on a canton goled a Iyons pawe Rasy of the felde armed geules upon his healme on a torse golde and asur an Ebecks hed rasy asur tusked horned aboute his neck two gemelles gold langued and snowted geules manteled geuls dobled silver as more plainnly apereth depicted in the margent To have and to holde to him and his posteritie and they it to use and enjoye for evermore. In wittnes wherof I the saide Norrey king of armes have set therunto my seale Geven and graunted at New CasteL upon Tyne the syxte daye of October in the ffrste yere of the reigne of our souerayne Lorde Edward the syxte by the grace of god King of england ffrance and Ireland defendor of the faith and of the Church of England and Ireland under Christe the Supreme hedd. Franchesca Havas wrote: > > When I first joined the list you all were at the very end of a parchment > discussion. I have been given an order for another knight's scroll and would > like to do it on this piece of goat parchment. I would like to hear from any > and all that have worked on this medium before or heard of someone that has > worked on this medium before. > > On another note I would like to know if anyone has done knighting scrolls > and where you got your script from. Are there any sources for actual > knight's scrolls in the SCA period-time frame? > > Thanks! > Ches ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:50:20 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technical Pen vs. Crowquill Greetings one and all. Lady Dairine makes a fine point that many medieval manuscripts have heavy black outlining, and if I want to reproduce that particular look I do use the wider tip technical pen (on my most recently finished scroll I used a "0" tip for longer outer lines, and a "000" for the finer detail inside). If I am drawing with the pen, on the other hand, like setting out the inner details of a celtic knot, I always prefer to use the smallest tip as I have the most control over where the ink goes, and how much. In essence I paint with the pen which releases the ink in a controlled manner. Now, on the scroll I'm currently doing I'm using a crow-quill and it's laying the ink down just fine... but for knotwork or white vine it'd be a total pain! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:57:38 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) In Caid we have a scribe's handbook that outlines *recommended* texts for all of the awards. I have always taken the liberty of elaborating the wording if I so choose, but the handbook makes clear that there are several key pieces of information that have to go onto a scroll to make it official (the date, k & q names, recipient [!], award, and if necessary blazon). All filler wordings may be modified, and extra text may be added as long as it's germaine. I've seen scrolls returned (thankfully few) for incorrect or incomplete wording, but that's the exception. Bruce is fairly forgiving (as were Aliskye and Elyramere before him) though he did razz me for leaving out the SCA anno societatis date on one scroll -- I thought it was optional. Duh!. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:20:51 -0500 From: "Franchesca Havas" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) Yes there is. But what I am looking for is documentation of where others have found actual knighting scrolls. I understand the need for standardization and it is very good! But sometimes there is that one particular person that feels that it would be great boon to them if I could find it in writing where the "script" came from. For me that would be ever so cool to know but not mandatory. Even if it were a condensed version of a 3k worded scroll! :) Thank you for the URL, that is just awesome! Any other out there with your scripts? Thanks! Ches - -----Original Message----- From: Gael Stirler, SCA Lady Dairine To: Franchesca Havas Cc: scribes@castle.org Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wording (prev parchment) >Dear Franchesca. > >I was surprised to learn that you were not given the text along with the >knighting scroll. ---clip---- > >Lady Dairine >http://renstore.com/articles/GSS/AtenScrollTexts.shtml > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:44:16 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: [scribes]: Kid Parchment I am currently working my second scroll taken from a lovely Kid hide I purchased from Rick Cavasin. He advertises his prices in Canadian dollars so I was pleasantly surprised when he told me the total in American dollars. It worked out to about $20 a square foot for the less expensive pieces. This vellum is like calligraphing and painting on velvet -- soft and silky smooth, but forgiving, durable, and a lovely shade reminiscent of an aged book (I bought a piebald hide). I love it and will never look back! If I could afford it I'd do every scroll on this stuff. I'm tracing directly onto it with pen (no pencil necessary) with my light table and it's easier than paper as it's more transparent. I haven't made any major errors, but when I found a dried spot of spilled paint on it (gouache, JimBear) I just wet it with a damp brush and worked it off leaving behind a bit of discoloration but nothing worth worrying about and hardly noticable unless it was pointed out. Finally, the kingdom seal (wax of course) stuck to it just fine after we sliced it and put a 1" piece of grograine (sp?) ribbon through it (Bruce handed me the x-acto knife and made *me* cut it!). I use prickings on the edge to do the borders and text lines, and on the first project I left them in while on this current project I've put them on the excess border that I intend to trim off. Prickings are cool, as they show up as brilliant white dots on the light table and act as wonderful alignment spots. Masking tape leaves no marks on the hide and comes off very easily, though I never left it on longer than I was tracing (I tape the original to the back of the vellum so it doesn't slide around -- it's slick, remember). Any other questions? I've worked with several thicknesses of vellum, and I like the thinner hides, though if it's too thin the ink and wet paint will be visible through it, so those should only be used for one-sided projects. The thinnest hides may have trouble because of buckling as you paint, but I don't know for what thinness that problem arises. Rick's address is (cav@storm.ca, http://www.niagara.com/~acavasin/rick/rcav.htm). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #123 *****************************