From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1199 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, November 15 1999 Volume 02 : Number 1199 In this issue: [scribes]: Paleography RE: [scribes]: Paleography [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V2 #1196 Re: [scribes]: Paleography [scribes]: Fwd: Paleography Re: [scribes]: Paleography ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:20:50 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Paleography Hello Saradwen and everyone, I was telling Mistress Nicola how much I enjoyed her class and I had a thought. Since latin abreviations are really specific to the latin language, and not very useful in modern english, but abreviations changed a lot from place to place and time to time (yeah, one of the ways to place and date a MS is by the abreviations) I thought it might be a fun and cool thing if we made up our own SCA version of abreviations for modern english! Now for those of you sctratching your heads and wondering what I am talking about when we already have such things as "can't, they're, you'll" and "etc." let me make it a bit more clear. OIn the middle ages there were a lot of words which were repeated in religious books. Also, there are a lot of word endings and common letter combinations which just got tedious to write over and over. So sometimes they didn't. They replaced this stuff with a specific "shorthand" made of symbols, slashes, etc. For example, a p with a slash through the descender meant something different than a horizontal bar through the descender. The horizontal bar above a word means some letters were left out, usually an m,n, or some combination, but always a specific thing. You couldn't just chop out words randomly. These symbols would be fairly consistant and codified, so we can't just transfer them from latin to english. They would have different meanings. What I am proposing is that we look at modern english and isolate the common repeated parts, especially the ones common on award scrolls, then look at suggestions on how we could create some abbreviation marks of our own to draw into the words. Then we would make a key and send it out through the SCA. We should make logical abbreviations, and keep it simple at first as people get used to it. I would also think it prudent to indicate such abbreviations in pencil on the back of scrolls so that we don't hurt the poor heralds' brains. I think it would be really cool and a great way to convert a medieval practice into a modern usage, in a medieval context. What do you scribes of the world think of the idea? Ranthulfr Asparlundr Sally Burnell wrote: > > Yesterday at the Oaken Regional Session of the Royal University of the > Midrealm (RUM), I took a class in Paleography for Scribes, taught by > Mistress Nicolaa de Bracton, mundanely known as Dr. Susan Carroll-Clark, > Ph.D. (who I sure hope we can convince to join this list!!). During her Ph.D > studies, she participated in a year long Mediaeval Latin Paleography class > offered through the Pontifical Institute for Mediaeval Studies at the > University of Toronto. WOW! It was incredibly neat to learn how to > understand all those funny little ligatures you see all the time in MSS. Now > it has me really motivated to learn more about it, and she recommended a > book called "Latin Paleography: Antiquity and the Middle Ages" by Bernard > Bischoff, Cambridge, 1960. I plan to try to find it here at the Kent State > University Library and check it out, since, as an active member of the > Alumni Association, I have borrowing privileges there. (Heck, that was half > the motivation for re-joining and becoming active again in it - being able > to have access to a good academic library is something you *don't* want to > take for granted!!) > > Anyone who is interested in this topic, go check out this book. Now, > Meisterin Katarina and Baron Master Ranthulfr, you think we can convince > Mistress Nicolaa to join this list and share her knowledge with us?? She'd > be a real asset to this list, for certain!! :-) > > YIS, > Lady Saradwen Ariandalen > Marche of Gwyntarian > (Akron/Kent, OH) > Midrealm - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:30:00 -0500 From: "Gray, Lyle" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Paleography Ranthulfr wrote: >The horizontal bar above a word means some letters were left out, >usually an m,n, or some combination, but always a specific thing. You couldn't >just chop out words randomly. These symbols would be fairly consistant and >codified, so we can't just transfer them from latin to english. From my experience working with paleography, Ranthulfr, I've found that the horizontal bar usage is _not_ always consistent, and that in some texts the horizontal bar could mean that different things were omitted, sometimes even for the same word in the same passage. The "per"/"pro" abbreviation, for instance, could also abbreviate "por" and "pre", respectively. Other than comments like that, I believe that abbreviations would work well. We already do so with A.S. (which really should be read out when the scroll is presented, not read literally as "A.S."). The full transcription of the scroll for the herald's use should not use the abbreviations. Lyle FitzWilliam Bergental, East ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:30:32 -0500 (EST) From: Stacey Jill Wahrman Subject: [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V2 #1196 Amazon has had a recent run on _Medieval Paleography_ because of a Ph.D. class this semester in the History dept. at the University of Maryland (the bookstore couldn't order it for us). It is a foundational book in the study of medieval writing, and for people who are experienced calligraphers who want something beyond Drogin to examine how thay can make their writing *look* more like medieval script, I would highly recommend it. The book examines the evolution of writing and script in some fascinating ways. The Capelli book (Latin Abbreviations, which my classmates and I also purchased, hence the link) I would not recommend as highly, since this is a very abbreviated English edition, almost to the point of uselessness. The original Latin/Italian and Latin/English edition was excellent, but is out of print (you don't need to be able to read Italian to understand what the abbreviations meant). I wonder if, between the eight people in the class and the SCA scribes, we can push Bischoff onto their bestseller list? I think he should sit beside Drogin and the other how-to books in every medieval calligrapher's library. Anastasia da Firenze - -=*=-=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=- Stacey Wahrman wahrman@wam.umd.edu If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:33:22 EST From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paleography OOps! I sent this to the person instead of the list. Let me try again. - -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o- In a message dated 11/15/99 9:06:05 AM, randyaf@provide.net writes: << I think it would be really cool and a great way to convert a medieval practice into a modern usage, in a medieval context. What do you scribes of the world think of the idea? >> I think it is a great idea! I use some Latin abbreviations sometimes, but you are right, they don't always seem quite suited somehow. The question is whether to -- adapt existing ones (such as the superscript bar) with our own meaning (I would prefer not to muddy the mental waters that way) -- invent new signs (but the interrobang looks so modern... would others?) for our specific stuff -- pick and choose among existing historical signs, and extend their meanings slightly without removing the "old" meaning. hmmmm Gotta look into that -- figure out what it is I just said..... Good idea. Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:16:10 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Fwd: Paleography This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------7510F87BC04BEF861410DCB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for posting to you redundantly Lyle, but I intended this to hit the whole list. You also commented that the bar stands for different letter ommissions. I wasn't intending to say that individual symbols like the bar had only one meaning. Certainly they had multiple meanings, and the bar had quite a few if any did. What I was trying to say was that they were specific. You didn't just put a bar over a word and delete any ol' letter you felt like. The letters it stands for differ in time and place, but it stood for several contractions at a given time and place. Ranthulfr - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf - --------------7510F87BC04BEF861410DCB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <383092B5.FCC3D9C3@provide.net> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:09:24 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Reply-To: randyaf@provide.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gray, Lyle" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paleography References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I often abbreviate A.S. "Ao Socs" represented with a horizontal bar above the O in Ao and over the center in Socs. I leave the periods out. Interestingly, I was just tempted to abbreviate 'horizontal" by stopping after the z and dropping the rest. Hmmm, it might have been a place to extend the lower line of the z and drive a diagonal slash through it. How would we like to abbreviate Manuscript(s) in a medieval fashion, rather than just MS and MSS? Ranthulfr Gray, Lyle wrote: > > Other than comments like that, I believe that abbreviations would work well. > We already do so with A.S. (which really should be read out when the scroll > is presented, not read literally as "A.S."). The full transcription of the > scroll for the herald's use should not use the abbreviations. > > Lyle FitzWilliam > Bergental, East - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf - --------------7510F87BC04BEF861410DCB9-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:12:26 -0500 From: Sally Burnell Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paleography Greetings, Baron Master Ranthufr and everyone!! Many have been the nights that I have laboured over a scroll, patiently forming each and every letter, delicately painting each bit of whitework, staring at my exemplar sitting next to me on my desk......and wondering to myself, "Why doesn't _my_ scroll look *quite* like that, even though I have done what was done there in that exemplar?" Now, granted, my Gothic script is something I still struggle with, spacing-wise, and it is something I have worked very hard to figure out how to fix, but until this weekend class on Paleography, doing ligatures never occured to me, until Mistress Nicolaa pointed out that doing them would make a piece look and feel more "Mediaeval". A lighbulb went off in my head!! AHA!! So THAT's it!! Now, the idea of us doing our *own* Ligatures, good Master Ranthulfr, has me very seriously intrigued!!! I like it a lot!! Just think what it could do to make our work look and feel more "period"! Yes, we'd most definitely need to figure out a way not to hurt the herald's brains too much, but gee, just think if we could come up with a set of "standardised ligatures" or something. Fascinating idea!! Lady Saradwen Ariandalen Marche of Gwyntarian (Akron/Kent, OH) Midrealm At 10:20 AM 11/15/1999 -0500, Randy Asplund wrote: >Hello Saradwen and everyone, > > I was telling Mistress Nicola how much I enjoyed her class and I had a >thought. Since latin abreviations are really specific to the latin language, >and not very useful in modern english, but abreviations changed a lot from >place to place and time to time (yeah, one of the ways to place and date a MS >is by the abreviations) I thought it might be a fun and cool thing if we made >up our own SCA version of abreviations for modern english! > What I am proposing is that we look at modern english and isolate the common >repeated parts, especially the ones common on award scrolls, then look at >suggestions on how we could create some abbreviation marks of our own to draw >into the words. Then we would make a key and send it out through the SCA. We >should make logical abbreviations, and keep it simple at first as people get >used to it. I would also think it prudent to indicate such abbreviations in >pencil on the back of scrolls so that we don't hurt the poor heralds' brains. > > I think it would be really cool and a great way to convert a medieval >practice into a modern usage, in a medieval context. What do you scribes of >the world think of the idea? ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1199 ******************************