From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1189 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, November 12 1999 Volume 02 : Number 1189 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations [scribes]: greetings [scribes]: RE: scribes -techniques on black ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:57:08 -0500 From: "Jennifer" Subject: Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations Lyle wrote: >>Anyone have any good sources for examples of 12th and 13th century English >>manuscript illuminations? > >My Lord Lyle, > Try the book "The Golden Age of English Manuscript Painting, 1200-1500" >by Richard Marks and Nigel Morgan, ISBN 0-8076-0972-2, published by >Braziller, 1981, $20.95 (Amazon.com price). That is a really nice source of >specifically English MSS. pages and the price is right, too. My copy is much >battered by heavy usage, but hey, I've sworn by it now for close to 20 years! > >YIS, >Lady Saradwen Ariandalen >Marche of Gwyntarian >(Akron/Kent, OH) >Midrealm > Yes I'd recommend the above book, as well as "The Illuminated Page - 10 Centuries of Manuscript Painting" by Janet Backhouse, Univ. of Toronto Press, ISBN 0-8020-4346-1, Cost about $40 Cdn. It has 17 examples of Early Gothic English Illumination. cheers, Genevieve Chastellain d'Anjou Trillium Signet for Ealdormere Baroness of Rising Waters ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jennifer R. Johnson Thorold, Ontario barons@niagara.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:48:52 -0600 From: Jennet Subject: Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations opps, meant for this to go out to the list. btw, inter-library loan this book if you college or university library does not have it. It is pretty expensive. Jennet wrote: > For 12th century English examples - over 400 examples from at least 158 > manuscripts: > > A survey of Manuscripts Illuminated in the British Isles Vol. Five Gothic > Manuscripts 1285 - 1385 > by Lucy Freeman Sandlers general ed J.J.G. Alexander > > It comes in a two book volume. First book is the illustrations (very cool > stuff) and book two is the text discussing the manuscript, Psalter or Hours or > bestiary, etc. A quick history, size, Provenance. > > Most of the pictures are B/W, which is my only complaint for this book. > Otherwise it is wonderful, wonderful! I have a copy. One of my favorite books. > > Jennet > > "Gray, Lyle" wrote: > > > Anyone have any good sources for examples of 12th and 13th century English > > manuscript illuminations? > > > > Lyle FitzWilliam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:53:30 -0500 From: Sally Burnell Subject: Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations At 06:57 PM 11/11/1999 -0500, Jennifer wrote: >> Try the book "The Golden Age of English Manuscript Painting, >1200-1500" >>by Richard Marks and Nigel Morgan, ISBN 0-8076-0972-2, published by >>Braziller, 1981, $20.95 (Amazon.com price). >Yes I'd recommend the above book, as well as "The Illuminated Page - >10 Centuries of Manuscript Painting" by Janet Backhouse, Univ. of Toronto >Press, ISBN 0-8020-4346-1, Cost about $40 Cdn. It has 17 examples of Early >Gothic English Illumination. Yeah, I have a copy of Backhouse, too. Lovely book. Expensive, but worth having in your library!! I'd recommend that one, too! YIS, Lady Saradwen Ariandalen Marche of Gwyntarian (Akron/Kent, OH) Midrealm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:48:45 +1100 From: bakerswood@msn.com.au Subject: [scribes]: greetings Greetings everyone, I'm a newcomer to the scribe's net-I've only been on for a few weeks but have found it interesting reading. I've been in the SCA in Lochac for nearly 18 years now, and have been a scribe for all that time.If you're interested, you can see some of my work, both SCA scribal and mundane, at http://illuminare.virtualave.net .Any feedback, comments and constructive criticism is welcome. your servant Mark Calderwood ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:48:51 +1100 From: bakerswood@msn.com.au Subject: [scribes]: RE: scribes -techniques on black Hi everyone, I've been doing some experiments with black for a while, and I find that tracing the design out with a white coloured pencil or dressmakers pencil-very faintly-is pretty good. Also, a black substrate can change the density and colour of some pigments, notably red and yellow.I'm still trying to work around this. I'm still trying to find out what was used to dye the vellum, as the Black Hours of Charles the Rash have been badly damaged by the acidic dye, but the Bruges Black Hours by William Vrelant are still in good shape.I wrote to the Osterreichische Bibliothek in Vienna, where the Charles the Rash ms is held, and they very helpfully sent me ten pages of information-all in german.The search continues. Another technique was used by the living god Georg Bocskay, who created the Mira Monumenta Calligraphiae in the 16th century.His method of creating the black folios in this ms was to write with some kind of clear "masking fluid", and then paint the wash the vellum or paper with ink, dye or black paint (chemical analysis is inconclusive at this point).I assume the masking fuid would then be removed, as some letters are further gilded or decorated with colour.This may not work with what you're trying, but it may be useful to come at it from a different angle if you're stuck. Hope it's helpful yours Mark Calderwood Lochac - -----Original Message----- From: owner-scribes@castle.org [mailto:owner-scribes@castle.org] Sent: Friday, 12 November 1999 11:01 To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1188 scribes digest Thursday, November 11 1999 Volume 02 : Number 1188 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: gold leaf? [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V2 #1187 [scribes]: Technique on black Re: [scribes]: Technique on black [scribes]: Re: Technique on black [scribes]: a project I'm trying to finish... Re: [scribes]: gold leaf? Re: [scribes]: Technique on black [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:02:12 GMT From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: gold leaf? Lucia, I've done some of the Visconti pages that have lots of gold (I don't recall which ones and my copy is at home). I think the results can definitely be worth risking your sanity, although be prepared for using quite a bit of gold. I did a Laurel scroll for Zenobia Naptali in the Visconti style - it was one of those pages with the heavy gold border on 3 sides with vinework going thru the gold. Lots of little fiddly areas to gild. The scroll was about 14x18 when done (I may have done it bigger too) so there was a lot of gilded area. I would recommend using 3M Removable Tape to mask off the areas that you don't want to gild, and then laying the foundation for the gilding around it (either gesso or some other base). It's less trouble that way if there are lots of tiny gilded areas. It's a little more wasteful of the gold since some of it will stick to the tape you're going to remove later, but it makes nice clean lines. Tetchubah of Greenlake - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:08:15 EST From: JervisaW@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V2 #1187 Greetings Lucia, I am Lady Jervisa Wainwright, a scribe of the Middle Kingdom. I mostly create illuminations and dabble in calligraphy. When I tackle a project like that I like to set aside a day or two for just the leafing. I would lay down the gesso over at least half of the guilding area ( making sure that I stop in areas where, when I start again, I won't disturb what was already done) and guild that much for the day. I find that it's not worth the risk of driving yourself crazy over, thats when mistakes happen and there goes your sanity. I hope this gives you some help. Good Luck, Jervisa Wainwright mka Liz Burton Silver Swords, Middle Battle Creek, MI - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:15:50 -0500 From: alienor Subject: [scribes]: Technique on black Good afternoon, all. My name is Alienora Russeal and a I labor with love as a scribe in Aethelmearc, and........... I have a question. Last night at our scribal workshop, I fell in love with a leaf from the Book of Hours done for Galeazzo Maria Sforza. The description states that the work is done on vellum stained or painted black. It's just lovely. Anyway, I was given a piece of Arches black hot press to try. Can anyone tell me how to go about laying out a piece on black. What can I use. I was thinking of something like a quilting pencil????? Also, I would assume from looking that this particular piece was done with shell gold on top of pigment???? Does anyone out there know the piece and can I get some advice on tackling a work based upon it? Cheers, Alienora - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:47:34 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technique on black Greetings Alienora: I've not used the Arches Black hot press, but have used their Cover Black. I was taught (in a mundane calligraphy class) to spray it well with Blair Fixative (the one in the black and olive drab can) before doing any layout... and then a regular pencil will show up on it -- as well as being erasible afterwards (if careful). If you don't spray it, any erasures you make will show up greatly. If you use the quilting pencil, spray first -- actually, I'd do a test piece first to make sure it will even erase. I used a "non-reproducible" blue pencil on a project in the mundane class, and the instructor was very surprised I was able to erase it -- it isn't as erasible as regular pencil is, I guess. I'm not sure which manuscript you are talking about, as I'm currently at work. But are you referring to how the gold was laid on the page? Are you talking about the calligraphy? The calligraphy would have probably been done with a gold ink (if it looks gilded), but you can also write with Gum Ammoniac or garlic juice and then gild, if you are ambitious. KHvS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 4:15 PM Subject: [scribes]: Technique on black > Good afternoon, all. > > My name is Alienora Russeal and a I labor with love as a scribe in > Aethelmearc, and........... I have a question. > > Last night at our scribal workshop, I fell in love with a leaf from the > Book of Hours done for Galeazzo Maria Sforza. The description states > that the work is done on vellum stained or painted black. It's just > lovely. Anyway, I was given a piece of Arches black hot press to try. > Can anyone tell me how to go about laying out a piece on black. What > can I use. I was thinking of something like a quilting pencil????? > Also, I would assume from looking that this particular piece was done > with shell gold on top of pigment???? Does anyone out there know the > piece and can I get some advice on tackling a work based upon it? > > Cheers, > Alienora > > - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:03:44 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Technique on black Greetings unto Alienora I did a piece on black paper for AEthelmearc court at Pennsic. I fell in love with the technique. It's a bit different from working on lighter colored paper, but once I got the hang of it, I had a great time. I too immediately thought of sewing supplies for laying out the piece when I realized my usual methods wouldn't work. I like to draw my designs on a separate piece of paper and transfer them by lightbox to my good paper or vellum. This was right out with black paper, but I remembered folks on this list discussing tracing papers, so I tried my dressmakers carbon paper (which comes in many colors ... including white) It worked like a dream. It didn't smudge at all. I found that a plain chalk marking pencil can be sharpened enough to use in a lettering guide and it gave surprisingly clear lines. Any white marks I needed to clean up, I used my trusty white eraser just like I do on any scroll. There were no marks at all. I used archival quality scrapbook paper, so there might be a difference in your results. Be sure to test your materials on a scrap of your paper to make sure they'll work. I think I've seen a Sforza black page like the one you're talking about, but I can't seem to locate a picture right now to look at the gold. The piece I did for Pennsic used a combination of raised gilding and shell gold. Master Morien (also of AEthelmearc) has a technique for laying leaf gold on top of a colored background using garlic juice. Have fun with your project and be sure to share with us what kind of results you get. In reverence of chivalry and honor... I remain, Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc Per pale azure and Or, two wyverns statant respectant conjoined at the breast counterchanged, on a chief argent three fleurs-de-lys azure. - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:59:35 +0500 From: David Nolan Subject: [scribes]: a project I'm trying to finish... Okay, I'm putting together a simple illuminating kit, complete with instructions. I'm doing three styles: bar and ivy, white vine, and book of hours acanthus leafy. I am including a very brief mention of the time period and geographical location of each style: B&I -13th- 15th c. France (mainly Parisian) WV-15thc. Italy BoH- 15th c. mainly France and Netherlands, popular throughout Europe. I want to be as accurate as possible, but still keep it general, this should be a brief guideline, not a thesis on book production:) Should I change or add anything? Are there times and/or countries I've glaringly ommited for these styles? Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, East (NH) - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:06:50 +0500 From: David Nolan Subject: Re: [scribes]: gold leaf? - - -=>I'm contemplating some madness and want to find out just how mad it would - - -=>be. I have been commissioned to do a scroll for a fellow who wants lots of - - -=>gold. Since I have often seen him in purple, I thought of the Visconti - - -=>Hours. Looking through the book, I find that I can give this man all the - - -=>gold he could possibly want-- but at what cost to my sanity? LF109v, for - - -=>example, has large areas of gold, some of them largely uninterrupted-- - - -=>would this be done in leaf? How does one tackle such an area that wraps - - -=>around the entire page? It doesn't appear to be raised, at least. (Thank - - -=>heavens for small favors!) ;> I am working on a scroll (on vellum) with LOTS of gold...most of the areas are flat gilded. Since there were more gold areas than painted areas in the border, I did it this way: First I inked in the design, then used masking fluid on the areas that would later be painted. When this was dry, I masked the straight borders with drafting tape (I find this to be gentler on the vellum/paper than the 3M blue stuff) and went over the unmasked areas with tinted gum ammoniac. Take off the tape when the g.a. is still damp, but wait until it's thoroughly dry to remove the masking fluid areas. These I'd carefully peel off, and I had my size just where I wanted it. Gum ammoniac is great, because it dries not tacky, but tacks up fast with minimal breath. It might not work as well on some papers, if the paper absorbs it too much. I've only used it on vellum so far, so I'm not sure how it works on paper. The drafting tape also works great on thin raised bars, e.g. Italian white vine. Put the tape on either side of the bar, rub the edges down so the gesso doesn't bleed under, and just blob it on. Remove the tape before the gesso dries. It's amazing how well this works. Anyways, you'll use copious amounts of gold, and probably come close to insanity, but the results are usually worth it!:) Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, East (NH) - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:06:34 +0500 From: David Nolan Subject: Re: [scribes]: Technique on black - - -=>Can anyone tell me how to go about laying out a piece on black. What - - -=>can I use. I was thinking of something like a quilting pencil????? From what I've heard, this paper shows pencil marks easily, so here's my advice: Do all your sketching and designing on tracing paper until you have exactly the results you want. Then get some Saral (there may be other brands also) white transfer paper, and transfer the design, tracing just *inside* your lines, so that paint will later cover it. Also press as lightly as possible with a fine point. - - -=>Also, I would assume from looking that this particular piece was done - - -=>with shell gold on top of pigment???? That's how shell gold was generally applied. (According to Christoper DeHamel in SCRIBES AND ILLUMINATORS) - - -=>Does anyone out there know the - - -=>piece and can I get some advice on tackling a work based upon it? I've done a little work on black, and I did it by dying my paper black with waterproof ink. It took erasures well, and it was easy to cover up mistakes in painting or calligraphy with a little of the same ink. Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, East (NH) - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:32:59 -0500 From: "Gray, Lyle" Subject: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations Anyone have any good sources for examples of 12th and 13th century English manuscript illuminations? Lyle FitzWilliam - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:15:14 -0500 From: Sally Burnell Subject: Re: [scribes]: 12th--13th century English Illuminations At 05:32 PM 11/11/1999 -0500, Gray, Lyle wrote: >Anyone have any good sources for examples of 12th and 13th century English >manuscript illuminations? My Lord Lyle, Try the book "The Golden Age of English Manuscript Painting, 1200-1500" by Richard Marks and Nigel Morgan, ISBN 0-8076-0972-2, published by Braziller, 1981, $20.95 (Amazon.com price). That is a really nice source of specifically English MSS. pages and the price is right, too. My copy is much battered by heavy usage, but hey, I've sworn by it now for close to 20 years! YIS, Lady Saradwen Ariandalen Marche of Gwyntarian (Akron/Kent, OH) Midrealm - ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1188 ****************************** ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1189 ******************************