From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #114 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, June 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 114 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Re: [scribes]: printed text? [scribes]: Catalog everyone might be interested in Re: [scribes]: printed text? Re: [scribes]: printed text? RE: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts (hands) Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts RE: [scribes]: printed text? Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts [scribes]: primitive breeds (fwd) Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts [scribes]: ignore, please Re: RE: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts (hands) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: hollis@slic.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Dear Gwen, Great! It's always great to see someone new getting interested in calligraphy. Perhaps you'll have so much fun with it that you'll be drawn to try illumination too; that's what happened to a lot of us. One terminology note that you might find helpful: In general, the term font is used only in typography, more specifically on a computer. For calligraphy, the correct term for style of writing is hand. I personally found the Italic style very easy and rewarding to learn. Fred Eager's The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting (available from Amazon books) was helpful for me on this one. Once you have a little bit more experience, you will be able to look at a written alphabet and determine how it is written. Once you reach that point, books such as Margaret Shepherd's Calligraphy Alphabets Made Easy will help you to see new styles, which you can then learn. In addition, there are a number of other resources available on the web. If you're interested in spending money, Amazon.com is a great bet for a wide selection of books; If you're not, there are other things. The Callig mailing list (devoted just to calligraphy) is located at callig@calligraph.com. From there, there are also links to other sites about calligraphy. Hope this helps, and good luck with your new hobby! Hollis Easter Ian Snowowl in days of yore when I was a scadian. At 08:45 AM 6/26/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings! > >I have decided to start learning calligraphy - and try it out on a couple of >practice scrolls- but I was wondering what people thought to be the easiest >styles to learn and if/where I could find resources to view? Thanks for the >help. > >Gwen > > >-- >************************************************** >Lady Gwenhwyvar verch Owen ap Morgan (call me Gwen) >Shire of Rokeclif, Northshield, Middle Kingdom >Principality Webminister, Northshield >************************************************** > > > > - ---------------------------- Hollis Easter hollis@slic.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead, anthropologist Yes, I did get a perfect score on my SAT-I's... See the picture at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2436/SAT52698.gif - ---------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:30:16 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts In a message dated 06/26/98 07:00:48, Gwen wrote: <> Great to hear from someone who wants to start scribing and I'm sure you'll get lots of information from this list. In my opinion, the easiest hands to start learning are the Gothic or blackletter, not Italic, which is what a lot of people start with. Gothic is mostly straight lines and makes for easier pen control. There are lots of good calligraphy books out there; many SCA scribes start with Marc Drogin's medieval calligraphy book. (sorry I can't give you the exact title, I loaned my copy to a friend) I also like _Traditional Penmanship_ by Anne Trudgill, published by Watson-Guptill; it doesn't have as much of the history, but it's got good examples and clear directions. Before you try a scroll, even for practice, please do some simpler projects, like calligraphing short pieces of poetry, a scroll can be a little discouraging as a starting project. Luighseach nic Lochlainn Dreiburgen, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:58:12 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Regina wrote: > I have decided to start learning calligraphy - and try it out on a couple of > practice scrolls- but I was wondering what people thought to be the easiest > styles to learn Early Gothic is what I started with; simple, fairly nice, and ancestral to more complex hands like blackletter and Batarde. Insular Minuscule (a Celtic hand) is also fairly straightforward to learn, but lately I've been finding myself annoyed with it--more finicky than Batarde, and not as pretty. That might be some idiosyncracy of mine, though; I really like Batarde (more experienced scribes have watched me working on it and said, "your hand likes that hand" :-). > and if/where I could find resources to view? You mean stuff to teach you how? The default answer is Marc Drogin, _Medieval Calligraphy_. You can find it listed on my bibliography page at . Just about everybody in the SCA learns calligraphy from Drogin; I don't think I've ever heard an alternative first text suggested (aren't intellectual monocultures fun?). /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:00:54 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: printed text? Donna Kenton wrote: > Anna, I'd wonder about the paper. I don't know if anything you can use in > the printer would be compatible with what you'd need for illumination. Although, if you really wanted to, you might get it photocopied onto something better. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:29:25 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: [scribes]: Catalog everyone might be interested in Hi Everyone, I just received a new catalog that I requested last week and after looking through it I thought I'd let everyone know about it. The catalog is called "Archival" and it's put out by University Products, Inc. It has a little something for everyone in it - artists, photograhers, book binders, institutions, etc. They carry *lots* of different sizes of storage boxes that are acid free/archival quality (I've got a few of these from another company and they're wonderful for storing art in as a flat file). They also offer mylar envelopes in many sizes, photo storage and mounting systems, framing supplies for your conservation framing (including some aluminum mouldings in various sizes), acid free folders and labels, acid free marbelized paper for bookbinding (I think I'm going to get some of this for french matting), light boxes, carrying cases, adhesives, etc. The catalog runs the gamut from supplies for your philatelist, bug collectors, photographers, framers, book binders and repairers, scrapbookers, etc - it's over 200 pages. The prices look very good - for example, one of the things I've been looking for is plastic 3 ring sleeves for photo negatives, which I've been buying from Exposures at $6.95 for 10. This catalog has a similar thing at $19.95 for a box of 100 which is considerably cheaper. It looks like some items may only be available in largish quantities but you might be able to split orders with friends. Their toll free number is 1-800-628-1912 or they have email at "info@universityproducts.com". Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:09:53 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: printed text? In a message dated 98-06-26 04:17:50 EDT, bibksat@Lisen.bibks.uu.se writes: << The thing is that my calligraphy sucks and I feel very tempted to do the text on a computer, I'd only do the illumination by hand. Now is this complete blasphmey or has anybody else tried this? Anna de Byxe >> Practise! Practise! Practise! :) :) :) ...........I believe that some individuals said they use a computer to layout their calligraphy and then trace it onto the scroll......you might have asked them.....but we killed them for lack of scibal purity :) JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:22:41 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: printed text? > << The thing is that my calligraphy sucks and I feel very tempted > to do the text on a computer, I'd only do the illumination by hand. Now > is this complete blasphmey or has anybody else tried this? > > Anna de Byxe >> > > Practise! Practise! Practise! :) :) :) ...........I believe that some > individuals said they use a computer to layout their calligraphy and then > trace it onto the scroll......you might have asked them.....but we killed them > for lack of scibal purity :) JimBear Not all of them.....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....! *Ahem* Er, I meant, why don't you use the computer printout to layout the calligraphy and then trace it? ;) Y'know, what JimBear said...? That way, you can get used to the idea, and gradually work on picking up the calligraphy...... Miri ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:22:12 -0700 From: Matthew Whitaker Subject: RE: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts (hands) >In a message dated 06/26/98 07:00:48, Gwen wrote: >>I have decided to start learning calligraphy - and try it out on a couple of >>practice scrolls- but I was wondering what people thought to be the easiest >>styles to learn and if/where I could find resources to view? Thanks for the >>help. > >From: Luiseach@aol.com [SMTP:Luiseach@aol.com] >Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 08:30 > >In my opinion, the easiest hands to start learning are the Gothic or blackletter, >not Italic, which is what a lot of people start with. Gothic is mostly straight >lines and makes for easier pen control. Gwen, Luighseach's comment reminded me why I do the hands that I do. In my opinion, the suggestion on Gothic/blackletter (which I'm interpreting to mean a Textura) is a good idea because the hand is, indeed, pretty easy if you're a beginning calligrapher, as long you normally write with crisp lines and angles in your modern life. On the other hand, if you tend to write in rounder shapes, you might find an uncial easier to do. I tend to do both lines and curves in my modern writing (because I usually print). I have no problem (other than the usual I-don't-do-it-enough problems and the problem of being sloppy because I hate not being able to pen a letter in one stroke), with a textura, or uncial, or some of the other mostly-linear/mostly-round hands. The main hand with which I have the hardest time is Early Gothic. If I'm going to do something in Early Gothic, I find I've got to practice textura (very linear) for a week, then practice carolingian (pretty round) for the next week, and then somehow manage mangle the styles together during a third week of practice so that I have the semi-round=semi-linear hand of Early Gothic. So, I'd get Drogin's book and look for hands that are similar to the way you modernly print, and go from there. Also, I usually start calligraphing on lined-notebook paper, or blank paper. It bleeds like mad, but you get the general idea of how the letters take shape, whether you're making them too tall, skinny, short, fat, etc, and how they're going to look on a page. After I get comfortable, THEN I practice on the good, expensive, hard to come by writing material. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:42:25 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts In a message dated 98-06-26 12:01:05 EDT, francis@thibault.org writes: << complex hands like blackletter and Batarde. Insular Minuscule (a Celtic hand) is also fairly straightforward to learn, but lately I've been finding myself annoyed with it--more finicky than Batarde, and not as pretty. That might be some idiosyncracy of mine, though; I really like Batarde (more experienced scribes have watched me working on it and said, "your hand likes that hand" :-). > and if/where I could find resources to view? You mean stuff to teach you how? The default answer is Marc Drogin, _Medieval Calligraphy_. You can find it listed on my bibliography page at . Just about everybody in the SCA learns calligraphy from Drogin; I don't think I've ever heard an alternative first text suggested (aren't intellectual monocultures fun?). >> Since she has gotten three different answers from as many people........so obviously all hands are simple..........JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:55:13 -0700 From: Karen Williams Subject: RE: [scribes]: printed text? Anna, if you are just interested in doing illumination, try doing a Celtic carpet page. This is an entire page of illumination, with no words to get in the way. Branwen ferch Emrys ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:02:41 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts > > You mean stuff to teach you how? The default answer is Marc Drogin, _Medieval > Calligraphy_. You can find it listed on my bibliography page at > . Just about everybody in > the > SCA learns calligraphy from Drogin; I don't think I've ever heard an > alternative first text suggested (aren't intellectual monocultures fun?). > >> > Since she has gotten three different answers from as many people........so > obviously all hands are simple..........JimBear Actually, I hadn't heard of Drogin until I got on this list....I learned by trying to copy examples when I was in elementary school and became fascinated with it. Miri ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:04:56 -0700 From: Curtis & Mary Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts Heather Swann wrote: > Just about everybody in > > the > > SCA learns calligraphy from Drogin; I don't think I've ever heard an > > alternative first text suggested (aren't intellectual monocultures fun?). > > >> >WEll.....I learned from the little Speedball booklet years ago, before I ever heard of the SCA, I just thought it looked cool. When I started doing scrolls I used that "Modern Gothic" [as one person has called] and Insular script which I learned by looking at the Book of Kells, *then* discovered Drogin. I don't do Batarde or any other script requireing frequent pen twists because it makes my wrist hurt. Besides, I do textura when I'm in a hurry and Insular when I have the time and space, tho one of these days I do intend to try Anglo Saxon. Mairi, Atenveldt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:19:39 -0500 (EST) From: Sara Harless Subject: [scribes]: primitive breeds (fwd) Hi, scribes, I lurk here and I'm also on the feltmakers list. I forwarded the "little sheep in the manuscripts" post to the feltmakers because some of them raise sheep. Here is one of the answers for your reading pleasure. Evaine of Rivenstar - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:54:57 -0700 From: joyce marlow To: feltmakers@peak.org Subject: primitive breeds I've been lurking for just a few days, am a spinner, knitter, soon-to-be-felter, and shepherd. We have a flock of polypay, rambouillet x and lincoln x, but I recently bought a small flock of 9 karakuls, including 5 black ewelambs and an unrelated pied ramlamb! I've been to a number of flock and fiber shows, and all primitive sheep I've seen are small. My karakuls are smaller than my other sheep and it is my belief that we've bred sheep to be larger for meat marketing purposes. Shetlands and Jacobs are the smallest primitives I've seen, with Icelandic and Karakuls being somewhat larger. A friend of mine who raises Icelandics told me that when they register their sheep, they have to supply a photo to show the tail, as the only discernible difference between Icelandic and Karakuls are that Karakuls have a 'fat tail' which serves the same purpose as a camel's hump - -- to store nutrients. Karakuls are the oldest domesticated sheep, and are known as the breed from which felting was created. Since the ewes I bought hadn't been shorn in a year, and they were felted on the hoof, this makes sense to me!j Joyce Marlow/Klickitat River Farms Sara wrote: The following is a question concerning sheep sizes in the Middle Ages, circa 6th to 16th centuries. Do any of you sheep ranchers have a knowledge of breeds going back that far? Were sheep smaller then? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:06:25 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts > Heather Swann wrote: > > Just about everybody in > > > the > > > SCA learns calligraphy from Drogin; I don't think I've ever heard an > > > alternative first text suggested (aren't intellectual monocultures fun?). > > > >> > >WEll.....I learned from the little Speedball booklet years ago, before I ever heard of the SCA, I just thought it looked cool. When I started doing scrolls I used that "Modern Gothic" [as one person has called] and Insular script which I learned by looking at the Book of Kells, *then* discovered Drogin. I don't do Batarde or any other script requireing frequent pen twists because it makes my wrist hurt. Besides, I do textura when I'm in a hurry and Insular when I have the time and space, tho > > Mairi, Atenveldt Um, actually, I was the one who said I hadn't heard of Drogin until I joined this list.......I learned from examples in books, not Drogin. I mean I looked at photos of manuscripts. Miri ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:40:13 -0400 From: Elyse Boucher <70521.3645@compuserve.com> Subject: [scribes]: ignore, please testing testing one two three ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:30:25 -0700 From: Laurie Jenkins Subject: Re: RE: [scribes]: Calligraphy fonts (hands) I think what Matthew says makes a lot of sense . The easy beginning calligraphy hand for one person is not going to be the same for the next person. I remember being told early on that uncial hands were very hard to do, but that seems to be the one I've been happiest with (though I'm not now nor claim to be a great calligrapher :) Determining a good hand to start out with for the individual learning seems to be the big trick and I hope Matthew's idea of comparing period hands to one's own printing works :) When I started in the SCA, I took an adult education class in calligraphy (something I recommend, if only for the forced practice (you don't wanna look totally lame in a class, so there is more incentive to practice), which taught Italic. I didn't think that was too difficult but I stopped practicing it, thinking it wasn't a period hand (and I'm pleased to find out that is incorrect). So I guess everyone has to find the best starting point for themselves. cheers, aliskye lauriej@fox.com Los Angeles, CA/Lyondemere, Caid >>> Matthew Whitaker 06/26 10:22 AM >>> >In a message dated 06/26/98 07:00:48, Gwen wrote: >>I have decided to start learning calligraphy - and try it out on a couple of >>practice scrolls- but I was wondering what people thought to be the easiest >>styles to learn and if/where I could find resources to view? Thanks for the >>help. > >From: Luiseach@aol.com [SMTP:Luiseach@aol.com] >Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 08:30 > >In my opinion, the easiest hands to start learning are the Gothic or blackletter, >not Italic, which is what a lot of people start with. Gothic is mostly straight >lines and makes for easier pen control. Gwen, Luighseach's comment reminded me why I do the hands that I do. In my opinion, the suggestion on Gothic/blackletter (which I'm interpreting to mean a Textura) is a good idea because the hand is, indeed, pretty easy if you're a beginning calligrapher, as long you normally write with crisp lines and angles in your modern life. On the other hand, if you tend to write in rounder shapes, you might find an uncial easier to do. I tend to do both lines and curves in my modern writing (because I usually print). I have no problem (other than the usual I-don't-do-it-enough problems and the problem of being sloppy because I hate not being able to pen a letter in one stroke), with a textura, or uncial, or some of the other mostly-linear/mostly-round hands. The main hand with which I have the hardest time is Early Gothic. If I'm going to do something in Early Gothic, I find I've got to practice textura (very linear) for a week, then practice carolingian (pretty round) for the next week, and then somehow manage mangle the styles together during a third week of practice so that I have the semi-round=semi-linear hand of Early Gothic. So, I'd get Drogin's book and look for hands that are similar to the way you modernly print, and go from there. Also, I usually start calligraphing on lined-notebook paper, or blank paper. It bleeds like mad, but you get the general idea of how the letters take shape, whether you're making them too tall, skinny, short, fat, etc, and how they're going to look on a page. After I get comfortable, THEN I practice on the good, expensive, hard to come by writing material. :) ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #114 *****************************