From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #111 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, June 25 1998 Volume 02 : Number 111 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll Re: [scribes]: nurturing new scribes Re: [scribes]: New member introduction Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll Re: [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:53:43 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! >>Ah hell Tetchubah.......I did think of a cute fix though.........a monk, or animal hanging on a bosun's chair holding a packet of ARGENT leaf (complete with silver leafed X running through the bad word).........<< I thought of one too, but it essentially involved writing a gloss in above that said "that should be Argent! you idiot!". However, I'm happy to report that I sat down last night a recalligraphed the entire thing and haven't found a single mistake yet, with the exception of trying to make "Highwynds" into "Higwynds" - but I caught myself in time and can use some gesso to hide the mistake. I've had a theory for a while that my calligraphy goes better if I have a glass of wine while I do it (it helps stabilize my shaky hand - either that or I just don't care about it ;-)), so I had some red wine last night while working on it. Maybe that was my problem before - I wasn't sipping wine in between pen dips. Of course, you have to know just how *much* wine to drink while doing this ;-) Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:37:34 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll In a message dated 98-06-25 01:54:18 EDT, RenScribe@aol.com writes: << This makes me think back to my own first assignment......... I was really scared and nervous when my first scroll went out. My fondest wish was that nobody would "boo" at it. I have *never* heard of this being done... and I now know it was just fear... but I was a wreck. >> My first scroll was the second of two tries (I still see it occassionally and wince). It is totally not period, but was done out of love for my then sister.......It's done on green matboard that I painted per chevron sable. I bought a quart of acrylic gesso (the only acrylic I'll let anyone badmouth) and proceeded to put approximately half that quart on the matboard in the form of an oaktree eradicated(one of the charges) so I had this 3-D tree (about 1/4-3/8" thick) which I leafed, and in the foliage, I built out the shield shape and AoA coronet, and painted the arms......there is a celtic interlace border painted in metallic gold and copper leaf paint. Because I couldn't calligraph, I drew out each letter and hand painted the letters three times because I kept changing my mind about the colour of the letters........actually it was received pretty well in court and the lady still has it hanging on her wall(ick). But I got better-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:37:38 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: nurturing new scribes In a message dated 98-06-25 08:32:51 EDT, Dorinda_E_Courtine- White@notesbridge.cummins.com writes: << wrote: How have people found it best to nurture/build an ongoing group of scribes? >> nurture? Nurture????? Throw them in the basement(along with the 100monkeys and typewriters) and tell them that if they don't produce the masterworks of the world in 2 hours, you're going to turn the lights on down there and blind them......ooops sorry- I think the keys are accessability and enthusiasm (and not spelling)...... 1).Make yourself availble for questions, get phone numbers.... 2).Be willing to try anything......if you don't know, say so, but be willing to try an experiment...."well, I've never done it but looking at what you want to accomplish, why don't WE try this......" 3). Follow up......call to see how the scribe(s) is/are doing, answer questions as best as you can via phone. Provide answers to questions that were asked earlier, but you didn't have an answer for. Don't call when you have to get off the phone right away....give them time to ask the questions, or tell you the troubles they are having with the techniques...... 4) Be positive. (Eowyn, Morgan, and Katerina can give lessons in this....) don't lie either but for every unsucessful thing, compliment a Good Thing(tm)....ask them what they like about the piece and what they don't like.....even on the things they don't like, you'll probably be able to find some glimmer of something that you can work from..... 5). Remember that this is supposed to be fun.......On my Laurel scroll, in the bottom left side is a picture of a whip....whenever my student would squirm about doing something I'd say "now, do I have to go and get the whip????" she'd laugh, but would usually start on the task at hand.......if she didn't, either there was something bothering her personally, or there was something I hadn't explained thoroughly and she wasn't sure about and we'd discuss either........ 6). Don't stand in the way: let the scribe have their head....let them create, don't throw barriers in their way like saying "that's not period" or "you're mixing centuries/styles".........When they want your opinion, they'll ask for it. At that time, if you know that they have been using books as exemplars, ask to see them. If the time periods are way off, ask them why they did something rather than asking, "do you know that you have a 14th c. Italian portait with an 11th c. border?" Most of the time they have a reason. If they ask your opinion during layout ask them what they want to accomplish and help them by setting realistic goals. 7). Work along side them. Set an example by doing, not talking. If you make a mistake while working, say it loud enough that they will know that everyone makes mistakes. Take breaks from your work, that you can see how they are doing....compliment often. Make sure they take breaks...especially if they are getting frustrated. Do not jump in and fix it for them.....if need be and you are not working on the same type of thing, have sheets nearby that you can draw something of the same nature and then demonstrate the technique for them..... 8). Follow up. Talk about the finished project, let them let off steam, then give praise even if it is "well, I like it." or "I really thought that this was cool". When the project (if it is a scroll) is given out, make sure that it is announced that it is the scribes first scroll.....Then ask what their next scroll assignment is going to be.......-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:37:35 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: New member introduction In a message dated 98-06-25 03:32:15 EDT, cnevin@caci.co.uk writes: << My name is Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia, and I come from the Shire of Ildhafn in the Southern Reaches of Caid (mka Auckland, NZ). I am however currently resident in the incipient Shire of Thamesreach in the Isles of the Kingdom of Drachenwald (mka London, UK). My primary interest is illumination (but am an occasional, if somewhat dilatory calligrapher) in particular C15th Italian, although I have also tried my hand at some C12th English work. I look forward to reading the list and meeting you all. Yours in service to the Dream, Lucrezia >> Welcome Lucrezia! When you get back home to fair Caid, if you haven't already, make the aquaintance of Mistress Rowena le Sargent, who does stunning work.......feel free to ask any questions, we're usually of some small bit of help (sometimes it's even constructive :) )-JimBear, Dreiburgen, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:58:42 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! In a message dated 98-06-25 12:00:03 EDT, Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com writes: << Of course, you have to know just how *much* wine to drink while doing this ;-) Tetchubah of Greenlake >> and where to dip your pen.........JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:19:27 -0700 From: Celeste Chadwick Subject: [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy Was Calligraphy actually ever painted in period? (Besides Japanese, etc.) Is there any period sources in which the calligraphy was painted? Is there any way to tell? Just for curiosity... HL Celeste de la Montagne Barony of Lions Gate, An Tir ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:04:53 +0000 From: David or Corinne Kohrn Subject: Re: [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy Calote here-- By painted, I'm assuming you mean that the ink was applied with a paintbrush. Minority Opinion here, but: I think that Celtic half-uncial was often applied with a stiff brush, (or a reed). The way to tell is to look at where the line becomes thicker. With a rigid nib this is achieved by twisting the pen, or by adding a second line. With a stiff brush or reed you also get this effect by appling slightly more pressure. Alphabets were designed to be written quickly. (Except for the Roman caps (and some others???) that were designed to be chiseled into stone, thus explaining the numerous details needed to achieve a roman serif with a pen). I'd think it illogical that a single letter would be designed so as to require the scribe to lift his hand from the page numerous times (twice would be reasonable--once to get the ink flowing). If there are too many other strokes that are required with a rigid nib to duplicate the original, or if the nib twisting becomes too convulted, than we should look at the possibilites that other tools were used. Of course a quill would provide a little flexibility, but not as much as a reed or a stiff brush. At one point I played with modifying old clarinet reeds to form a writing tip capable of getting the slight thickening at the bottom of Celtic letters w/o twisting (slight pressure at the bottom of a downstroke would seem to be natural rather than contrived effect). Calote dragonfly@w-link.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:36:37 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll >>etters........actually it was received pretty well in court and the lady still has it hanging on her wall(ick). But I got better-JimBear<< I remember that scroll! And you aren't kidding about the 1/2 quart of gesso. My first scroll was an AoA for Elyramer of Tymberlyne Heyghts. I cringe now when I think of it (it was a combination of yellow, red, and green interlace with, get this - ivy leaf foliage surrounding the emblazon). A terrible combination of periods. Of course, I *was* working at a disadvantage in that I was living in Western Seas at the time and had never actually seen a real live scroll when Eowyn found out I could do calligraphy and sent me the 4 AoA assignments we had in the Barony at the time (they were the only awards we had). Since I didn't have the foggiest idea what she had in mind I called her and she kindly sent me some photographs of scrolls that others had done. From there it was kind of a case of "fake it" - fortunately I had a drafting class in Junior high shop class, so I knew how to do layouts. I think I did the first three in a similar style - just celtic knotwork in a border with the Arms and a large capital letter. I also "redlettered" the important parts like the recipient name, the award, and the blazon. The fourth one I got fancy and did celtic knotwork wolves in the border (by then I'd picked up George Bains' book on celtic construction) for Robert Stebbings, aka Stebbenwolf. I did them all on some sort of horrible parchment paper (not the fake stuff - this was more like drafting parchment I think). I know Elyramere's is still holding up - at least the red ink hasn't faded badly the last time I saw it, although the paper was starting to get brittle and a tad yellow. They were all done in tube watercolors. In fact, I don't think I started using gouache until I moved to California in 1984 - it was too hard to find in Western Seas. I switched over to Rives BFK paper after those first four and was much happier with this new paper. Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:36:07 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll My first scrolls were in a huge batch of Baronial awards, Golden Tridents I believe. I personally knew everyone whom I calligraphed for, and I still occasionally see the scrolls when I visit them. Shortly thereafter my first Kingdom scrolls were given to Mistress/Baroness Eleanor (Pelican scroll) and her Excellency, Baroness Felinah (Harp Argent, for Spinning & Weaving). Both are proudly displayed, and I never once cringed at the thought of handing them out. Much time has passed and many scrolls delivered, but those two will always have a special place in my memory. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:26:19 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy Greetings one and all from Thomas Brownwell in Sunny Calafia I missed the original post, but am responding to Calote's comments on painted versus penned Celtic half-uncial. I am almost certain that the scribes used a pen. There are a couple of factors involved. First, the differentiation between thick and thin would be impossible to obtain from a brush with any consistency because of the natural tencency of the bristles to splay out. Second, if you look at the hands, sometimes you can clearly see where the scribe reloaded the pen, and it corresponds very closely with how long it takes me to use up all the ink in one of my pens. Third, a feather quill is extremely soft when it's been soaking for a while and it splays quite nicely with a slight amount of pressure. Finally, Calote has made the assumption that twisting a pen is a tough thing, and I'd have to disagree. Yes, *I* find rotating a pen to be a pain, but that's because I haven't been doing it since I was 12 years old. When I get into the flow of a particular hand, whether Artificial Uncial, or Anglo-Saxon Minuscule (both of which have a certain amount of pen rotation), I am able to do most letters with the suggested 2 or 3 strokes, and really don't find it difficult. Now I must admit that my experience with a Goose or Turkey quill is in fact limited, but I found that they were even *easier* to rotate because they were so much lighter and the tips didn't dig into the surface nearly as badly as my metal nibs with holders. From what I've read Quills were the preferred writing tool in Western Europe once Parchment superceded Papyrus in the 6th C A.D. (well before the 8th C Irish scribes at Lindesfarne or Kells), as the quill wrote more smoothly and provided a cleaner line on the skin than the previous stiff Reed Pens. The Quill was not replaced until the 1830's when a flexible steel nib was finally developed. (See Rose Fulsom's comments under "Quill" in the "Calligrapher's Dictionary", and Michelle Brown's comments under "Pen" in "Understanding Illuminated Manuscripts"). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:17:34 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Painted Calligraphy In a message dated 98-06-25 17:30:33 EDT, brownwell@home.com writes: << First, the differentiation between thick and thin would be impossible to obtain from a brush with any consistency because of the natural tencency of the bristles to splay out. >> I agree with your assessment Thomas but the brush splaying out is a brush control/medium control issue (IMHO) more than anything else-JimBear ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #111 *****************************