From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #109 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, June 25 1998 Volume 02 : Number 109 In this issue: [scribes]: Sheep? RE: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! Re: [scribes]: Sheep? RE: [scribes]: Sheep? Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! [scribes]: Re: Medallions [scribes]: Re: Grrrrr! Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! ... Herald to rescue Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! Re: [scribes]: Re: Grrrrr! Re: [scribes]: Bookbinding glue? [scribes]: Geographic Trends Re: Re: [scribes]: Bookbinding glue? [scribes]: First Scroll Re: [scribes]: First Scroll [scribes]: Re: First Scroll Re: [scribes]: First Scroll ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:11:48 -0700 From: Laurie Jenkins Subject: [scribes]: Sheep? I was sitting around the other day with a friend looking at books of manuscript pages and she pointed out some really cute sheep in one of the miniatures. These sheep seemed to be about the size of little to medium sized dogs. And then we started looking at more pictures and started seeing lots of little sheep. So, I was wondering for no particular reason at all, if sheep were really that much smaller back then, or if these were just cases of bad perspective, or if the people were more important than the sheep or what? Sorry, I don't remember the exact manuscripts to point to, but it seemed to be happening even in some of the later stuff. sheepishly yours, aliskye :) lauriej@fox.com Los Angeles, CA/Lyondemere, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:11:12 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy/chiara Subject: RE: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions Arianna wrote: > Full and honest truth: I was told flat out when I got my >Laurel for C & I that it was not so much because *I* was a great scribe >(which I'm not) I'd have to disagree with that, I've seen what you do!!! :) Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:10:05 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! Tetchubah, Pardon my intrusion, but I don't see how someone can have a white background and a white rose??? Or am I not getting what "the blazon which read "Argent, on a pile urdy between two compass points sable, a rose *sable*" (that should have been a rose *argent*). AAAAARRRRRRGGGHH!" this blazon really means??? Maybe the "pile urdy" is a different color?? I'm confused. Help. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Seneschale of the Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom ~~ Vert, a unicorn head couped close Argent, crinned and armed Or, and in sinister, a gore Or ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:57:46 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: Sheep? Laurie Jenkins wrote: > These sheep seemed to be about the > size of little to medium sized dogs. And then we started looking at > more pictures and started seeing lots of little sheep. Maybe they were lambs? Lambs are common in Christian imagery. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:57:34 -0700 From: "Karen Jarvis (General Employment)" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Sheep? I believe that sheep were smaller - so were cattle. We have been breeding for size for a few hundred years. I think that only one of the lines that existed then exists now. Lady Valerienne de Menton -----Original Message----- From: John Stracke [mailto:francis@thibault.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 4:58 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Sheep? Laurie Jenkins wrote: > These sheep seemed to be about the > size of little to medium sized dogs. And then we started looking at > more pictures and started seeing lots of little sheep. Maybe they were lambs? Lambs are common in Christian imagery. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:30:54 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! Well, if you can't understand the blazon go talk to the Heralds. Seriously, the blazon reads "Argent, on a pile urdy between two compass stars sable, a rose argent." I think the *implication* is that the "pile urdy" is also sable (which it is) although they don't blazon it "Argent, on a pile urdy sable between two compass stars sable...", probably because it sounds redundant. My own arms are blazoned "Per chevron vert and or, two quills in chevron or and a rose sable" - if you wanted to stretch a point I guess you could assume that I have gold quills on a gold background although the quills are actually on the green section. And this is probably where my darn brain picked up "a rose sable" from. I'm no herald - can someone help me out here? Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:37:46 EDT From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Medallions In a message dated 6/24/98 9:26:10 AM, Ariannawyn@aol.com wrote: <> Actually, no. They were made by Mistress Louise of Woodsholme, who got her Laurel in cloisonne *mumble* (20+?) years ago. They are seen fairly frequently around Caid. Each one is hand done (I took her class years ago at Collegium, and bending those little silver wires takes lots of time and skill, then filling the spaces with powdered enamel/glass can be persnickety), and alas for my pocketbook, they are sold for hand-made-jewelry prices. I treasure my Pelaurel. Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:53:53 EDT From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Grrrrr! In a message dated 6/24/98 4:52:35 PM, meistern@netusa1.net wrote: <> The blazon works. The background is white (Argent). The pile urdy and the compass points on either side of it are black (sable, because that is the next color mentioned), and the white rose is on the black pile because the blazon said, "on a pile..." Might I recommend my article, "Heraldry for Scribes?" It appeared in the Fasachian Heraldic Symposium Proceedings (1983?), "Tournaments Illuminated" in the early 1980s, and has been reprinted in several kingdom heralds' handbooks. If it does not happen to appear in your kingdom's herald's handbook, I would be happy to send you one. Cheers! Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid (currently herald-at-large; formerly Clarion Queen of Arms and various other heraldic titles) "Ancora Imparo" -- I am still learning (shamelessly stolen from Michaelangelo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:44:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! The pile urdy will be the next color mentioned, which is sable. (Honestly, it's no worse than the jargon I had to learn for my graduate psych courses ;-) Graidhne (who used to be a herald in the dim reaches of time) On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Carolyn Richardson wrote: > > Well, if you can't understand the blazon go talk to the Heralds. > Seriously, the blazon reads "Argent, on a pile urdy between two compass > stars sable, a rose argent." I think the *implication* is that the "pile > urdy" is also sable (which it is) although they don't blazon it "Argent, on > a pile urdy sable between two compass stars sable...", probably because it > sounds redundant. My own arms are blazoned "Per chevron vert and or, two > quills in chevron or and a rose sable" - if you wanted to stretch a point I > guess you could assume that I have gold quills on a gold background > although the quills are actually on the green section. And this is > probably where my darn brain picked up "a rose sable" from. > > I'm no herald - can someone help me out here? > > Tetchubah of Greenlake > Kingdom of Caid > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:05:17 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! ... Herald to rescue Hi, Hund Herald Here (and there are many other heralds on this list) the blason reads Argent, on a pile urdy between two compass stars sable, a rose argent now to break it down Argent, (a white or silver field) a pile urdy between two compass stars sable (a black pile between two stars) on a pile ... a rose argent (on the pile a white rose) You break the blason at each colour mentioned thus everything between the first "argent" and the "sable" is "sable". The blason is done in layers with the field (background) first, then the items on the field and finally the items in the third layer. This could also be blasoned as Argent, a pile urdy sable charged with a rose argent, between two compass stars sable and this is slightly confusing as it partly reads as the compass stars on the pile not beside it. as ever Thorfinn, Lochac, West Melbourne, Australia and suffering greatly from your demon as I typed "herlad" three times Carolyn Richardson wrote: > > Well, if you can't understand the blazon go talk to the Heralds. > Seriously, the blazon reads "Argent, on a pile urdy between two compass > stars sable, a rose argent." I think the *implication* is that the "pile > urdy" is also sable (which it is) although they don't blazon it "Argent, on > a pile urdy sable between two compass stars sable...", probably because it > sounds redundant. My own arms are blazoned "Per chevron vert and or, two > quills in chevron or and a rose sable" - if you wanted to stretch a point I > guess you could assume that I have gold quills on a gold background > although the quills are actually on the green section. And this is > probably where my darn brain picked up "a rose sable" from. > > I'm no herald - can someone help me out here? > > Tetchubah of Greenlake > Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:28:05 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Grrrrr! In a message dated 98-06-24 18:41:12 EDT, Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com writes: << I decided to trash the whole thing (there were other spelling errors as well and I decided there were just too many of them in addition to the unfixable blazon). Laid out a NEW scroll and I'm still debating the lettering size since I've changed the format a little. Wish me luck. Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid >> Ah hell Tetchubah.......I did think of a cute fix though.........a monk, or animal hanging on a bosun's chair holding a packet of ARGENT leaf (complete with silver leafed X running through the bad word)......... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:01:37 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Grrrrr! Thank you Eowyn, I would like to have a copy. I probably have the TI it was printed in, but that is among several binders on the bookshelf in my scriptorium...I don't look at them much unless someone new comes to look through them (bad Laurel..). I think the "pile urdy" is what confused me...I can usually figure out most blazons. But, I do appreciate all the help in "seeing" this one. Old age sometimes creeps in and I forget things I used to know long ago. If you have it as a file on your computer, I can receive attachments in text files, Word Perfect, or even Microsoft Word. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Seneschale of the Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom ~~ Vert, a unicorn head couped close Argent, crinned and armed Or, and in sinister, a gore Or ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:01:18 -0700 From: Laurie Subject: Re: [scribes]: Bookbinding glue? Thanks for the inforation on adhesives for bookbinding. I found a recipe for a wheat starch paste in one of the books that I have, so I'll give that a try. The book (Cover to Cover by Shereen LaPlantz) talks about different adhesives and mentions Wheat starch pastes, and YES paste and gives some information about each. It also mentions PVA and says that it is not archival while the Wheat paste and YES paste are. I wonder if that is a cause for concern for anyone using PVA for bookbinding or gliding purposes? cheers, aliskye aliskye@pacbell.net Los Angeles, CA/Lyondemere, Caid Luiseach@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 06/23/98 23:47:26, aliskye wrote: > > < actually) and I wanted to glue an endpaper to my marble paper cover. > Because the urge struck late at night, I used the plain clear craft > glue that was sitting around, but the result was a bit lumpy. Is there > a better glue for this type of thing, or did I apply it sloppily? > Any advice from the bookbinders in the house? >> > > I'd recommend paste, either homemade flour and water variety or a commercial > product called 'Yes Paste" rather than glue. Also make sure you are putting > the adhesive on with a stiff brush so it spreads evenly - that should take > care of most lump problems. > > Luighseach ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:11:59 -0600 From: Kim Archuleta Subject: [scribes]: Geographic Trends I have a question that may come up from time to time in other places and = directly relates to this discussion- How have people found it best to nurture/build an ongoing group of = scribes? =20 We have a very strong concentration in heavy weapons fighting (as in = like half of the reigns of Princes when we were a principality and Kings = since the Outlands became a Kingdom have been from our barony, lots of = belts, hats and strawberry leaves...) and it does tend to be a focus. = We do have a wide range of artisans however (many Laurels even) and a = large active barony, but arts classes/groups have a tendency to = disappear after several months. Any suggestions how to overcome this apathy, or perhaps more accurately, = how to keep people interested in a particular art form? Elenfea Knott, Deanna wrote: >=20 > I don't know about Laurels, but, we have an obscene number of Royal = peers in > our Barony. Actually, the Barony that I live in is a little obscene. = WE > have somewhere between 80-100 active members. Out of that number we = have: >=20 > 8 Royal Peers > 5 Pelicans > 2 Laurels > 3 Chivalry > 8 Court barons > (actually, it used to be 10, 2 of our Court Baronessess went = on to > become Countesses) In our Barony, out of 80-90 members, we have: 2 Royal peers, one inactive 1 Knight 0 Pelicans (ours just moved away) 7 Laurels (yes, that's seven) 1 Court Baron Yes, I'd say it's a case of talent breeds talent, especially considering = how many of our Laurels are cooking experts (and we *all* like to eat). But = things change. A decade ago (or more), we had 4 knights and 2 laurels. The = local scroll days are getting more crowded with new people, and the wheel = turns again.=20 Blessings, Marthe Elsbeth of Oak Hill Thor's Mountain, Meridies ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:26:28 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [scribes]: Bookbinding glue? Well, PVA isn't reversible - once it's on IT'S ON!!!forever. Once, when I was in a bookbinding class, one of the other students, a bit of a health nut, decided to make her wheat paste with stone ground whole wheat flour, and then wondered why she didn't get a smooth pastedown on her endpapers. I like to use wheat starch paste, you can buy the starch from some book art supply places or at your local Oriental grocery store. Happy binding, Luighseach ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:40:03 -0500 From: Lady Mylisant Subject: [scribes]: First Scroll Greetings All, I know this may sound trivial and not worth the time to post but as there are not that many scribes in my area and considering the fact that I am surprisingly pleased with my efforts, I would like to announce the completion (yesterday) of my very first scroll. Thanks to all of you who took the time to answer my questions. As soon as I find a way to scan it and if anyone is interested, I will try to find a web page where I can put it to be viewed. - -- Lady Mylisant de la Croix Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies Purpure, two natural seahorses addorsed on a point pointed argent a crescent inverted sable and on a chief triangular argent a crescent sable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:42:14 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: First Scroll Congratulations Lady Mylisant. I can well remember my feelings when I completed the first scroll I ever did (way back in AS XIX or so). Anything you accomplish on your own is a good feeling. Keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing your work when you can get it on line. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Seneschale of the Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom ~~ Vert, a unicorn head couped close Argent, crinned and armed Or, and in sinister, a gore Or ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You said... > I would like to announce the > completion (yesterday) of my very first scroll. Thanks to all of you who > took the time to answer my questions. As soon as I find a way to scan it > and if anyone is interested, I will try to find a web page where I can > put it to be viewed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:47:33 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: First Scroll In a message dated 6/24/98 11:46:04 PM, sknouse@msuvx2.memphis.edu wrote: >Greetings All, > I know this may sound trivial and not worth the time to post but as >there are not that many scribes in my area and considering the fact that >I am surprisingly pleased with my efforts, I would like to announce the >completion (yesterday) of my very first scroll. Thanks to all of you who >took the time to answer my questions. As soon as I find a way to scan it >and if anyone is interested, I will try to find a web page where I can >put it to be viewed. >-- >Lady Mylisant de la Croix >Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies Congratulations Lady Mylisant Trivial and not worth posting??!! Bad scribe... no biscuit ;-) Your accomplishments are no more, or less, trivial than the accomplishments of any of us. In all sincerity, I hope scribing brings you the same joy it does for so many on this list. I hope you will take the time and effort to make a color photocopy or take a picture of the scroll to start a scrapbook of your work. I wouldn't trade mine for all of the silk in Ealdormere (and they have some really nice silk there) ;-) This makes me think back to my own first assignment......... I was really scared and nervous when my first scroll went out. My fondest wish was that nobody would "boo" at it. I have *never* heard of this being done... and I now know it was just fear... but I was a wreck. Not one who is easily daunted, this was a new feeling for me. I probably would have slunk out of the hall and hidden, except it was an outside court..... and the woods were a good distance away ;-) My stomach did flip flops as they read the scroll, then turned it around for all to see. I was pleasantly surprised by the "Aaahhh" that my scroll received. The memory of the applause when it was announced that it was my first scroll still brings tears to my eyes. There are days when it's good to be the scribe :-) Anyone else want to share their story? Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:12:59 -0700 From: Laurie Subject: Re: [scribes]: First Scroll Huzzah for Lady Mylisant's first scroll! I wasn't that jazzed with my first scroll, but there were a couple of parts that pleased me. I've been happier with other scrolls since then and it's a really neat feeling when it's going well. I know there have been times when I keep going over to look at my work table and I'm happy with what I've done (usually just before doing something silly that I hate :) So be happy and celebrate and look forward to the next one :) cheers, aliskye aliskye@pacbell.net Los Angeles, CA/Lyondemere, Caid > > Greetings All, > I know this may sound trivial and not worth the time to post but as > there are not that many scribes in my area and considering the fact that > I am surprisingly pleased with my efforts, I would like to announce the > completion (yesterday) of my very first scroll. Thanks to all of you who > took the time to answer my questions. As soon as I find a way to scan it > and if anyone is interested, I will try to find a web page where I can > put it to be viewed. > -- > Lady Mylisant de la Croix > Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies > > Purpure, two natural seahorses addorsed on a point pointed > argent a crescent inverted sable and on a chief triangular > argent a crescent sable. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #109 *****************************