From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #108 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, June 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 108 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox Re: [scribes]: [Fwd: Tres Riches Heures help] Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox Re: [scribes]: Bookbinding glue? [scribes]: West Kingdom Scribes Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends Re: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Re: [scribes]: nib/paper question [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions RE: [scribes]: Catalogs Re: [scribes]: West Kingdom Scribes Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal treestump, (long sorry) Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions [scribes]: medallions Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox [scribes]: News story: Burdett Psalter sells for 4.6 million Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions Re: [scribes]: News story: Burdett Psalter sells for 4.6 million Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox [scribes]: Grrrrr! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:34:41 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox Pete Steiner wrote: > In other words you're saying that, in the West, Scribes are mere drudges > who are of such low social caste that they don't even deserve to be paid > for their work?! I don't believe this is the motivation for the policy--which was apparently written by the/a Kingdom Scribe, who's unlikely to think of scribes as drudges. :-) It sounds to me like a policy passed by someone who wanted to institutionalize their own opinion of Why We Do This: i.e., scribing is too pure to be done for money, not too base. Mind you, I do believe that the policy contributes to the low recognition scribes get out here (hardly any scrolls are given out in court, for example). We don't get public thanks, and we're not allowed to accept money as private thanks. (Me, I wouldn't want to charge for scrolls--not that I think it's wrong; I just don't want scribing to become Work. But not everyone feels the same.) > That they are punished if they accept compensation > for their materials, time and skill?! Yes. The policy from the West Kingdom Scribes' Handbook reads as follows: Producing award scrolls is supposed to be a contribution to the Society, not a money- making opportunity. Any scribe who takes money for doing award scrolls in the West will have their warrant pulled and will no longer be allowed to scribe in the Kingdom of the West. The only exception to this policy is if the recipient wants to use rather expensive "extras" on their scroll (i.e., gold leaf and real vellum) you may ask them to pay for the materials unless you are ready to pay for them yourself. Note that it does not not specifically prohibit barter. I've been told in the past that payment for scrolls is one of the topics that starts long arguments here, so I'll refrain from getting into this more; I just wanted to damp down the flame potential in the "drudges" idea. :-) I'll be happy to discuss it by private email, though. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:49:04 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: [Fwd: Tres Riches Heures help] > I went to amazon.com today trying to find a copy of the Tres Riches Heures . . > [...] I'm interested in just the > illustrations, so a complete analysis of everything in them is not required. You can see them moderately well for free at . /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:57:24 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox > Pete Steiner wrote: > > > In other words you're saying that, in the West, Scribes are mere drudges > > who are of such low social caste that they don't even deserve to be paid > > for their work?! > > I don't believe this is the motivation for the policy--which was apparently > written by the/a Kingdom Scribe, who's unlikely to think of scribes as > drudges. :-) It sounds to me like a policy passed by someone who wanted to > institutionalize their own opinion of Why We Do This: i.e., scribing is too > pure to be done for money, not too base. Hmm. I can understand that to a certain point. Maybe when there were fewer scrolls to do, that was more plausible. > > Mind you, I do believe that the policy contributes to the low recognition > scribes get out here (hardly any scrolls are given out in court, for > example). We don't get public thanks, and we're not allowed to accept > money as private thanks. (Me, I wouldn't want to charge for scrolls--not > that I think it's wrong; I just don't want scribing to become Work. But > not everyone feels the same.) > Perhaps you could work to change that...change the rule, bring it up for discussion out there. > > That they are punished if they accept compensation > > for their materials, time and skill?! > > Yes. The policy from the West Kingdom Scribes' Handbook reads as follows: > > Producing award scrolls is supposed to be a contribution to the > Society, not a money- making opportunity. Any scribe who takes > money for doing award scrolls in the West will have their warrant > pulled and will no longer be allowed to scribe in the Kingdom of > the West. The only exception to this policy is if the recipient > wants to use rather expensive "extras" on their scroll (i.e., > gold leaf and real vellum) you may ask them to pay for the > materials unless you are ready to pay for them yourself. > > Note that it does not not specifically prohibit barter. > Perhaps part of it stems from the being warranted. We don't do that in Atlantia. If you can do the job and you're willing, you may ask for assignments. Maybe it's just part of that formal structure.... Miri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:10:20 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Bookbinding glue? In a message dated 06/23/98 23:47:26, aliskye wrote: <> I'd recommend paste, either homemade flour and water variety or a commercial product called 'Yes Paste" rather than glue. Also make sure you are putting the adhesive on with a stiff brush so it spreads evenly - that should take care of most lump problems. Luighseach ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:18:01 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: [scribes]: West Kingdom Scribes Okay, before the flaming gets too bad (and since we've already had this discussion) I'd like to point out that while the letter of the West Kingdom law is that scribes cannot be compensated for their work, that's not the way I'm told it works in practice. It is perfectly acceptable for someone to barter/pay for their scroll if they want to. What the West was trying to put an end to was the practice of some scribes who *demanded* payment for their work, and wouldn't produce scrolls otherwise. Personally I still think that if a scribe wants to be paid and someone is willing to pay them for the work then who is the West kingdom to say otherwise? In a free market economy like the SCA if people don't want to pay for the work then they can go elsewhere, and if the scribe in question winds up with no work at all then they've hardly gained anything by being greedy. I'm more than willing to do scrolls for nothing because I like doing scrolls, but I have no problem working out barter or payment arrangements as well. Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:19:11 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends Martha Knowles wrote: > Knott, Deanna wrote: > > Actually, the Barony that I live in is a little obscene. WE > > have somewhere between 80-100 active members. Out of that number we have: > > > > 8 Royal Peers > > 5 Pelicans > > 2 Laurels > > 3 Chivalry > > 8 Court barons > > (actually, it used to be 10, 2 of our Court Baronessess went on to > > become Countesses) > > In our Barony, out of 80-90 members, we have: > 2 Royal peers, one inactive > 1 Knight > 0 Pelicans (ours just moved away) > 7 Laurels (yes, that's seven) > 1 Court Baron In our Shire, with something like 30-40 people playing with us, we have (at least): 3 Royal peers 3 Knights 6 Laurels 1 Court Baron (don't know of any Pelicans that play with us) > Yes, I'd say it's a case of talent breeds talent, Yes. Our skewed count can be explained by the fact that, though the group is nominally small, we're in the cradle of the SCA, with many-many high-level people around us. Francois Thibault Crosston, Mists, West /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:23:24 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Gael Stirler wrote: > When trying to > establish an order of presidence only a signed scroll can resolve > disputes. I *strongly* disagree. Given a 5-year backlog, the absence of a scroll does not imply the lack of an award. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:26:25 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: nib/paper question Donna Kenton wrote: > However, this nib is really chewing up the paper (Crane's Artificial > Parchement). And there's the problem. I seem to remember reading that artificial parchments in general were a Bad Thing, because they're paper with a waxy coating. The ink sits on the coating instead of soaking in, and can flake off over time. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:20:47 EDT From: Ariannawyn@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions Avelina, you hit it mostly on the head when you said: >I think the key is proximity to talent and training. We need to train >people within reasonable traveling distance from each other. Actually, I have noted such clustering of talent in the three Baronies I have lived in (Rhydderich Hael/Buffalo, NY - Stonemarche/New Hampshire - Debatable Lands/Pittsburgh). I believe it boils down to not just talent at a particular skillset, but having that talent combined with the ability to *teach.* I have a lot of skill at teaching and a little talent for several arts, primarily C & I and music. Therefore, I have been able to spur others' talent in these arts. Full and honest truth: I was told flat out when I got my Laurel for C & I that it was not so much because *I* was a great scribe (which I'm not) as it was because I had 2 people with Laurels and 4 with Kingdom Arts Orders for C & I who learned most of their art from me in one way or another. I've noticed the same phenomenon among archers, fighters, service mavens and other artisans. Where great teachers are (by which I mean people who are capable of imbuing their students with enthusiasm, as much as knowledge and skill), you get big clusters of talented people emerging in those fields. So I guess, if your local group doesn't have very many good scribes, you should go find some people and TEACH them! 8-) Regarding the AoA medallions, I don't see why it's important to tell just by looking at someone what their rank is. Yeah, I usually wear my peerage medallion, but sometimes I don't because I don't like being judged by what I have as opposed to how I behave. And I really hate it when people treat others well or badly based on rank. Sorry, rant over. Besides, the only way such medallions would be useful is if an SCA-wide insignia was adopted, which strikes me as a little unlikely. Anyway, I'm with the people who said scrolls are historical documents, not gifts. They are records of when an award was bestowed, and sometimes used to prove such when the heralds or royalty lose that information. Anyone can buy the tokens of an order - last I noticed, merchants selling order medallions or coronets don't ask for proof of your right to these symbols. It's the scroll with the royal signatures which makes the award *really* real. Those awards for which I didn't get a scroll because the scribe didn't get it done just didn't seem quite real to me at the time. BTW, the cloisonee order medallions JimBear mentioned sound like they were probably made by Countess Genevieve du Vent Argent. Formerly of the Middle Kingdom (Ohio), we are fortunate that she has been living in Debatable Lands for the past few years. Her medallions are gorgeous and she has donated several of them for new peers here, though I believe they sell for about $20 (don't quote me). I *think* she sells them at Pennsic, usually at a booth with a silk merchant called Sterling Silks. Check them out if you go to the Pennsic War. If enough people are interested, I'll ask her if it's ok to post her e-mail address to this list. In addition to peerages, she does Kingdom Order medallions for the East, Middle and AEthelmearc, and would probably take a commission for something from other kingdoms. Arianna of Wynthrope (Karen Kasper) Barony-Marche of the Debatable Lands (Pittsburgh, PA) AEthelmearc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:37:29 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy/chiara Subject: RE: [scribes]: Catalogs =BBI'm in search of the most reasonably prices quality gouaches, brushed = and =BBother illumination matarials. Could some of you good gentles please po= st =BBthe addresses of catalogs which have our needed materials at good pric= es? =BB =BBMany thanks =BBBrigantia Pearl has very good prices, and they carry a wide range of gouaches by=20 Lascaux, Winsor Newton, Turner Colour Works Ltd.,Holbein, and Daler- Rowney. They also have dry pigments by Sennelier, Gamblin, Winsor-Newton, Jacquard(pearls and metallics), and Old Holland. =20 They also have a good assortment of brushes, and a respectable selection=20 of gold leafing supplies for a main stream supplier. Their catalog covers only a portion of what they have in their stores,=20 if you want something that isn't in the catalog, call them, they probably have it. At a glance, their discounts seem to range from 20-40% off list. Pearl, 308 Canal St. New York, NY 10013 1-800-451-PEARL Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:13:45 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: West Kingdom Scribes Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com wrote: > What the West was trying > to put an end to was the practice of some scribes who *demanded* payment > for their work, and wouldn't produce scrolls otherwise. OK, yeah, that does make more sense. Thanks for clearing that up. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:21:34 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal treestump, (long sorry) In a message dated 98-06-24 01:25:45 EDT, francis@thibault.org writes: << Second, the Kingdom. Consider what happens when somebody hits burnout--tired of scribing, for instance. When this happens, whatever tangible recognition we've been able to give them may help remind them that they're appreciated, that maybe it's worthwhile to keep on scribing (or whatever). Making sure that AoA recipients get their scrolls--their one bit of recognition--is thus a benefit to the Kingdom. >> I consider this to be one of the possible faults of the "combat scribing" method of scroll production. I am not saying that the Kingdom is wrong, I'm saying that it is more likely for burnout. In the SCA, we often have the view of "It's been done this way, it should always be done this way" attitude...... but from an outsider's point of view it appears that the scribes are being taken advantage of. If one is expecting that SOMEONE will do a scroll and it will be there when the award is given, it is easier to view the scroll(and therefore the scribe) like say, a dangly that you get out of the awards box......no thought is given to who made the dangly or the scroll.... The scribal report that someone thought of is a great idea from alot of different points of view, in Kingdoms where they do "combat scribing" I'd modify the report and have it read in court at the time the scroll is given out.........I'd put approx. start time and finish time and a place for how many scrolls were done by that person that day..... In Caid where we work against the backlog system and therefore have the luxury of working hundreds of hours on one scroll :), I would modify it to state number of hours worked on it by the illuminator and number of hours by the scribe......this past weekend, at an Irish Faire demo we did, I had my Laurel's scroll out for display (in one of those plastic box frames) and I took great pride in being able to tell the folks all the specifics e.g. on vellum, hand ground pigments, egg tempera, 22kt. gold, hand ground inks, and that it took the illuminator and calligrapher 8 weeks approx. 4-6 hrs. a day........when put into those terms, people were absolutely blown away. What was really cool was that artisans (mundane) were completely aware of the value (time/money/sentimental) because I took the time to tell them... Yes an AoA is important, and yes it may be the only award that someone might get. The difference is, that it doesn't have to be the only award..... Each Kingdom has service, arts/science and fighting awards.....and they should be given out. If noone else, the members of those orders should be on the lookout for the new talent and "old workhorses" and write recommendations. The Peers have a DUTY to look at/for candidates, and if they can't necessarily elevate them to the Peerage they can recommend them for other awards....I have way too many hobbies in this society, and because of various clerical errors, I've been given the same award (which is only to be given once) three times in three different artforms (two of which became my primary and secondary when I was Laureled)........I have yet to see anyone do NOTHING in the SCA....if you are doing nothing, chances are you're roadkill....(the bear steps down off the treestump and leaves the clearing)-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:21:37 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox In a message dated 98-06-24 02:10:01 EDT, francis@thibault.org writes: << Point of interkingdom anthropology: In the West, we aren't allowed to take money for doing award scrolls. >> actually, in this case you probably could.........if this were a replacement for one that "Wasn't good enough" I bet your chief scribe would give permission (and maybe even say kick up the price 10%)-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:55:44 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions >>BTW, the cloisonee order medallions JimBear mentioned sound like they were probably made by Countess Genevieve du Vent Argent. Formerly of the Middle Kingdom (Ohio), we are fortunate that she has been living in Debatable Lands for the past few years. Her medallions are gorgeous and she has donated several of them for new peers here, though I believe they sell for about $20 (don't quote me). << $20!!! Wow, that's CHEAP. Louise was charging around $150 for her medallions the last time I asked. I just spent over $300 on an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous Pel-laurel medallion from an artisan in An Tir (mundane name is L.A. Fine (allyson)). Fortunately this lovely lady was just made a Laurel for her work. This was actually enamel work (I don't think it was cloisonne' although I could be wrong - I never could tell the difference) and of course it did get made to my specifications with a lot of diapering in the background (I had it diapered with crescents inside lozenges) and it came with a renaissance style sterling setting. Well worth the bucks, IMO and it absolutely glows in the sunlight. Now all I have to do is get the freshwater pearls to dangle from the setting and I'm cooking! Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:39:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Monica Cellio Subject: [scribes]: medallions Countess Genevieve's cloisonee medallions (which are gorgeous and very well-made) go for around $35-40. It's possible that the exact price depends on the complexity of the design; I'm not sure. She does commissions, too. Ellisif ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:38:01 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions In a message dated 98-06-24 12:26:10 EDT, Ariannawyn@aol.com writes: << BTW, the cloisonee order medallions JimBear mentioned sound like they were probably made by Countess Genevieve du Vent Argent >> Actually sorry I wasn't clear.....the cloisenne medallions were definately done By Mistress Louise of Woodsholme, the other medallions were of metalwork and were done by Duchess Athena of Annsteora(sp?) ( I just called my wife and she told me)-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:37:56 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox In a message dated 98-06-24 10:36:04 EDT, sringler@lvdi.net writes: << THLord Martin aus Brandenburg, Esq., a better brewer than scribe, alas... >> Martin are you lurking??? Well met! I thought about that as I read it too...Jim Bear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:03:06 -0400 From: "Gaylin Walli" Subject: [scribes]: News story: Burdett Psalter sells for 4.6 million I don't know if many of you watch for these things, but I do. If you have web access, you can read this little article as posted at the URL shown below. I've included the text for anyone without web access. Enjoy! -- Jasmine de Cordoba, Midrealm, jasmine@infoengine.com http://my.excite.com/news/r/980624/11/odd-book Prayer book sells for $4.6 million LONDON (Reuters) - An illuminated 13th-century French prayer book made for a crusader to the Holy Land was sold on Tuesday to a private collector for 2.75 million pounds ($4.6 million), auction house Sotheby's said. It was the highest price paid for any French manuscript and the third most expensive illuminated manuscript ever sold. The book, known as the Burdett Psalter, was probably commissioned by Jean de Villiers, Grand Master of the Knights of St John, whose portrait appears five times in the manuscript, Sotheby's said. De Villiers led Crusader forces in besieged Acre, in present-day Israel, in 1291. After the seaport fell to the Moslems, he escaped to Cyprus where he died of his wounds. The manuscript found its way to England by about 1300 and was given in 1634 to Jane Burdett, from whom it took its name. It remained in her family, unknown to scholars, until 1990 when it was acquired privately by a collector. "This is the first time that this book has appeared on the open market since the 1280s and today's price is a triumph for the Crusaders," Dr Christopher de Hamel of Sotheby's said in a statement. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:18:58 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends, Medallions In a message dated 98-06-24 13:59:19 EDT, Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com writes: << Now all I have to do is get the freshwater pearls to dangle from the setting and I'm cooking! >> Uh Tetchubah, Don't cook in it.......gravy stains are hard to get out.....I have a laurel medallion for everyday wear.......a merchant at RPF (the coin stamping place) had a die of a bear and a die of a Laurel..........so Ghislaine bought me a bronze medallion about the size of a quarter that is a bear/laurel-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:49:45 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: News story: Burdett Psalter sells for 4.6 million Gaylin Walli wrote: > "This is the first time that this book has appeared on the open > market since the 1280s and today's price is a triumph for the > Crusaders," Dr Christopher de Hamel of Sotheby's said in a statement. Hey, they had to have a triumph sometime. ;-) /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:45:59 -0700 From: "Scott Ringler" Subject: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox >Martin are you lurking??? Well met! I thought about that as I read it >too...Jim Bear > Oops! I got caught! Well Met and Congratulations, Master JimBear! (I was lurking there, too) Yes, I've been lurking for the past couple of months on this WONDERFUL list --basically on "Full Absorb"-Mode. So much great information flies through here, it is all I can do to keep up, make notes, check recommended sources, URLS, catalogs, books, and experiment when I can. Alas, it has been a few years since I completed an awards scroll or organized a local scriptorium class, and I am impressed beyond belief on what is being done out there nowadays. Since our last active laurel moved away a few months ago, it has fallen on us GA's to carry on teaching the Arts & Sciences in Starkhafn. Though we are blessed in having THLady Teleri of Gwynned (whose skill and artistry in C&I far, far outshine my own meager scribblings) as an example, I have been trying to gather enough information and raw data to interest and hook a few newcomers I know in the scribal arts, myself. This list has been invaluable for that (Thanks, All!) Back to listening attentively... THLord Martin aus Brandenburg, Esq. (Brewing, Research, Heraldry and a little, rusty scribing for good luck) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:41:12 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: [scribes]: Grrrrr! Well, our Patron Demon is alive and well and currently living at my house. I had started Mistress Renata's Pelican scroll the other night (for you out of kingdomers, Renata is the former editor of the Crown Prints who "discovered" Sir Guillaume de la Belgique's hilarious writings). Got most of the text done and last night went to finish it off. After that I was reviewing the text and adding some flourishs to the calligraphy when I got down to the blazon which read "Argent, on a pile urdy between two compass points sable, a rose *sable*" (that should have been a rose *argent*). AAAAARRRRRRGGGHH! I decided to trash the whole thing (there were other spelling errors as well and I decided there were just too many of them in addition to the unfixable blazon). Laid out a NEW scroll and I'm still debating the lettering size since I've changed the format a little. Wish me luck. Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #108 *****************************