From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #1069 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, September 15 1999 Volume 02 : Number 1069 In this issue: [scribes]: Re: [scribes] usage [scribes]: "use of" & ink Re: [scribes]: Re: Book of Hours Re: [scribes]: "use of" & ink Re: [scribes]: [Mid] A Book of Hours on eBay - lots of pictures! [scribes]: A Book of Hours on eBay - one last appeal to Bill Re: [scribes]: [Mid] A Book of Hours on eBay - lots ofpictures! Re: [scribes]: [Mid] A Book of Hours on eBay - lots of pictures! [scribes]: Illumination libraries was: A Book of Hours... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:02:09 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: [scribes]: Re: [scribes] usage Dear folks, That Ebay Book of Hours was said to be "in the use of Angiers." The term "Use" refers to the way the Bible passages and prayers within a book of hours were arranged. Passages and their order differed from place to place. Each place tended to have its own arrangement. It was an important way for art historians and of course collectors to determine the provenance or origin and history of an individual book. Recently, if I remember correctly, the concept of "use" has been reevaluated -- it was never possible to determine exactly what text went into each "use," and that imprecision made it less important as a tool for art historians (though it probably still caries weight with collectors). - -- johannes v.n. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:56:43 PDT From: "Elyse Boucher" Subject: [scribes]: "use of" & ink Greetings! :-) If I am remembering correctly, "Use of" generally refers to modifications to a standard book of hours that are typical to a region.... that is, "Use of Sarum" (sp?) means that you have a mostly standard book of hours with additional local saints in the calendar and some specific prayers added, saints and prayers that you won't find in a book classified "Use of Rome"--and, of course, "Use of Rome" has saints and prayers that you won't find in "Use of Angiers." This is one way in which manuscripts can be identified as to location of creation, but you do have to be careful; for instance, the Flemish made a lot of BoH for export, and so you'll sometimes find something that screams "FLEMISH!!!" in terms of the style, but has a Sarum set up. Regarding ink: If you are really serious about making ink, I'd suggest you get a book called "Medieval Inks" by Jack C. Thompson. He's done beaucoup research on the subject. It's $8 through his website. http://www.teleport.com/~tcl/ I think, or search for Thompson Conservation Lab. Another very good site is http://www.algonet.se/~claesg/index.htm This one contains info on mistakes that this gentleman made in learning to make inks and a ratio for making ferrogallic ink that is pretty much guarenteed. Look under "Ink Recipies". Hope this helps, Your Servant, Merouda ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:35:47 -0700 From: Curtis & Mary Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Book of Hours Sally Burnell wrote: > > Greetings, fellow Scribes! I wrote to the seller of that beautiful Book of > Hours on eBay, and he was kind enough to respond. I have here a copy of his > response to me and also a question. What does "Use of Angers" mean? Use of ____________ {insert whatever place} means the prayers and format are those typical of that area. Use of Paris, use of Rome are two others I've seen in different places. mairi, Atenveldt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:59:45 EDT From: CarynvnK@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: "use of" & ink Greetings, everyone! Merouda said: > Regarding ink: If you are really serious about making ink, I'd suggest you > get a book called "Medieval Inks" by Jack C. Thompson. He's done beaucoup > research on the subject. It's $8 through his website. > http://www.teleport.com/~tcl/ I think, or search for Thompson Conservation > Lab. Thank you!! The gall wasps have thoroughly visited my oak tree (only the gambel oak, not the scarlet, which I find slightly weird--they're right next to each other) and I was thinking of thwarting their evil intentions :-> by making all their galls into ink. I will check this out!! Thanks again Caryn Artemisia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:01:31 -0400 From: Sally Burnell Subject: Re: [scribes]: [Mid] A Book of Hours on eBay - lots of pictures! Peter, My reaction to this stunning Book of Hours was much the same as yours. Awe, astonishment, gratitude to the seller and sadness that it'll probably fall into the hands of some high roller who'll never make it available to us, as you say, "unwashed scribes"! I've had the very good fortune to make the acquaintance of Bruce Ferrini, one of only a handful of dealers in the world of Mediaeval Manuscripts, and have had the very good luck to have occasional access to his collection. Rather unfortunately, he recently sold the end of his business that used to sell leaves from MSS. and only deals with whole books now, stuff that sells for more than any of us could ever hope to afford. He sells exclusively now to high rollers, so I do not have the once easy access I used to have to some of his stuff.................(sigh) Once, when I was in college, I was taking a Mediaeval Art course. I had been in the SCA about a year at this point, and had already been bitten by and smitten with Illuminated MSS. I told my professor of my great love of them, and she arranged for me to visit the Rare Books room of our University library, where she had them give me access to their MSS. collection. I well remember their bringing out a whole Incunabulus, a whole book........and I remember being utterly...............well, to say I was in awe is an understatement!! I sat there, stunned, that they would allow me, no credentials but a love of MSS., to even touch the thing!! I was afraid to breathe in its presence!! Carefully, with cotton gloves on, did I sit and turn each page delicately, as if my life depended on it! I lost track of all time, just sat there drinking in this rare privilege that my professor, upon hearing my deep love and respect for MSS., arranged for me! They also had some individual leaves that I was permitted to look at as well. That is the only time I've ever been allowed unfettered access to a real, honest to God MS. book. Like you, Peter, I have to wonder what we could learn could we only have access to that book. Like you, I think of being able to see the brush strokes, the gilding, the binding, the pen strokes.......all of that. It pains me to think that some high roller will snap up what is obviously a real bargain for such a rarified thing, and none of us will ever see it again. Like you, I wonder in amazement at the enormous responsibility of the potential owner of this book, and it pains me to think of someone defacing this book by tearing it leaf from leaf to sell each page individually, despite having survived 500 years of war, plague, fires, water and whatever other damages it may have potentially been exposed to. I pray that whoever gets it (and I hope that some museum gets it, because at least that way it can be seen, and at that price, it's a bargain any way you cut it!!), understands what it means to folks like us who especially revere these things. Well, for what it is worth, at least the seller knows that I have a scholarly interest in his book, and seems appreciative of the fact that someone holds a deep love of what he has to offer. (Despite the fact that I could never afford it.....sigh......) I wrote him this evening and asked him if he could, please, scan the whole book on to a CD-ROM and sell it, as that would do the art world a great service and would allow as many as possible to see such a rarified thing as what he has in his possession. We'll see what he thinks. Someone on this list suggested that we write him and ask him to do that, so I did. Thanks, whoever wrote that!! Good idea!! Maybe if enough of us wrote to him, he'd get the idea that there is a lot of interest in his book. Well, we can only try.......... And so it goes................ YIS, Lady Saradwen Ariandalen Marche of Gwyntarian (Akron/Kent, OH) Midrealm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 00:56:20 -0400 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: [scribes]: A Book of Hours on eBay - one last appeal to Bill Lady Saradwen, If the reserve is not met (unthinkable....but it could happen), the owner might make as much money from the sale of CD-ROMs as he would from selling the manuscript. I had the distinct impression that he hates having to sell it. I don't remember whether or not I held the book in my hands last night while I was dreaming. That's the trouble with dreams...sometimes you can't recall them. :-) I WANT THAT BOOK! I want it for us all. I want to travel from scribes' meeting to scribes' meeting, carrying a treasure that anyone willing to exercise care and respect may examine. I want to sit around a table with you and Merouda and Ranthulfr and Aralyn and Mairi and Cori and Eowyn and Eibhlin and everyone else who can fit (we would find a very large table) - and experience the synergy of ideas, observations, speculations and wonder which would ensue. I WANT THAT BOOK! I want to see the size of the pigment particles (Malachite and Azurite and Ultramarine......) under magnification. I'm still convinced that Bill Gates is lurking. Come on Bill! Help us out sir! :-) - -Peter Gwer Rychen von Bern- Lapidary Artist and Maker of Period Pigments Barony of the Rhyderrich Hael Kingdom of Aethelmearc User of many Microsoft Products Sally Burnell wrote: > Peter, > My reaction to this stunning Book of Hours was much the same as yours. > Awe, astonishment, gratitude to the seller and sadness that it'll probably > fall into the hands of some high roller who'll never make it available to > us, as you say, "unwashed scribes"! I've had the very good fortune to make > the acquaintance of Bruce Ferrini, one of only a handful of dealers in the > world of Mediaeval Manuscripts, and have had the very good luck to have > occasional access to his collection. Rather unfortunately, he recently sold > the end of his business that used to sell leaves from MSS. and only deals > with whole books now, stuff that sells for more than any of us could ever > hope to afford. He sells exclusively now to high rollers, so I do not have > the once easy access I used to have to some of his stuff.................(sigh) > > Once, when I was in college, I was taking a Mediaeval Art course. I had been > in the SCA about a year at this point, and had already been bitten by and > smitten with Illuminated MSS. I told my professor of my great love of them, > and she arranged for me to visit the Rare Books room of our University > library, where she had them give me access to their MSS. collection. I well > remember their bringing out a whole Incunabulus, a whole book........and I > remember being utterly...............well, to say I was in awe is an > understatement!! I sat there, stunned, that they would allow me, no > credentials but a love of MSS., to even touch the thing!! I was afraid to > breathe in its presence!! Carefully, with cotton gloves on, did I sit and > turn each page delicately, as if my life depended on it! I lost track of all > time, just sat there drinking in this rare privilege that my professor, upon > hearing my deep love and respect for MSS., arranged for me! They also had > some individual leaves that I was permitted to look at as well. > > That is the only time I've ever been allowed unfettered access to a real, > honest to God MS. book. Like you, Peter, I have to wonder what we could > learn could we only have access to that book. Like you, I think of being > able to see the brush strokes, the gilding, the binding, the pen > strokes.......all of that. It pains me to think that some high roller will > snap up what is obviously a real bargain for such a rarified thing, and none > of us will ever see it again. Like you, I wonder in amazement at the > enormous responsibility of the potential owner of this book, and it pains me > to think of someone defacing this book by tearing it leaf from leaf to sell > each page individually, despite having survived 500 years of war, plague, > fires, water and whatever other damages it may have potentially been exposed > to. I pray that whoever gets it (and I hope that some museum gets it, > because at least that way it can be seen, and at that price, it's a bargain > any way you cut it!!), understands what it means to folks like us who > especially revere these things. > > Well, for what it is worth, at least the seller knows that I have a > scholarly interest in his book, and seems appreciative of the fact that > someone holds a deep love of what he has to offer. (Despite the fact that I > could never afford it.....sigh......) I wrote him this evening and asked him > if he could, please, scan the whole book on to a CD-ROM and sell it, as that > would do the art world a great service and would allow as many as possible > to see such a rarified thing as what he has in his possession. We'll see > what he thinks. Someone on this list suggested that we write him and ask him > to do that, so I did. Thanks, whoever wrote that!! Good idea!! Maybe if > enough of us wrote to him, he'd get the idea that there is a lot of interest > in his book. Well, we can only try.......... > > And so it goes................ > > YIS, > Lady Saradwen Ariandalen > Marche of Gwyntarian > (Akron/Kent, OH) > Midrealm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:57:48 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: [Mid] A Book of Hours on eBay - lots ofpictures! Sally Burnell wrote: > > Once, when I was in college, I was taking a Mediaeval Art course. I had been > in the SCA about a year at this point, and had already been bitten by and > smitten with Illuminated MSS. I told my professor of my great love of them, > and she arranged for me to visit the Rare Books room of our University > library, where she had them give me access to their MSS. collection. I well > remember their bringing out a whole Incunabulus, a whole book........and I > remember being utterly...............well, to say I was in awe is an > understatement!! I sat there, stunned, that they would allow me, no > credentials but a love of MSS., to even touch the thing!! I was afraid to > breathe in its presence!! Carefully, with cotton gloves on, did I sit and > turn each page delicately, as if my life depended on it! I lost track of all > time, just sat there drinking in this rare privilege that my professor, upon > hearing my deep love and respect for MSS., arranged for me! They also had > some individual leaves that I was permitted to look at as well. > And so it goes................ > Lady Saradwen Ariandalen It is with great awe to look upon and handle some of the books that have made it to the libraries rather than private collections. There any several other manuscripts in the state library, the local calligraphy society went there to see them, so with white cotton gloved hands we looked at books for two hours. The local brothers of the Order of St.Francis hold a missal from the end on the 13th century as this is an important and valuable book it has been put in our state library for safer keeping. There was also a copy of Boethius "De Musica" and "The lives of the Caesars" from Lorenzo de Medici's library, with his arms on the front page. as ever Thorfinn, Lochac, West Melbourne, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:08:44 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: [Mid] A Book of Hours on eBay - lots of pictures! The book of hours is not the only period document on eBay at the moment http://listings.ebay.com/aw/listings/list/category356/index.html for the whole list of manuscripts and books, a few items are within period and have images attached. 1544 contract temp Henry VIII http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=164404067 1558 contract temp Elizabeth I http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=164394108 1441 a leaf from a book of hours (grrrr) - bidding closed but image still there http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=164394108 as ever Thorfinn, Lochac, West Melbourne, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 00:25:14 -0500 From: "Franchesca Havas" Subject: [scribes]: Illumination libraries was: A Book of Hours... I too was one of the fortunate that got to be allowed into the bowels of the university classics library carefully hidden in one of the universities oldest buildings. It is on a floor that the elevator does not have a selection for and that not all the buildings stairs go to. There's one set of stairs in the building that go to this library and I was stunned to see how obvious that was. (I have since also made explorations of other buildings around the world for this type of stair well.) The classics prof unlocked the door for me to enter and locked me in, alone. She was very trusting! I lost time, she had to wake me at 3am to tell me that I must be careful not to stay too long as my breathing could cause moisture in the room! I remember that day as it was the only time she would let me in. I had made my notes from the one book that I was there for quickly and perused the rest of the library. It was just incredible! It was a very small room and it was cold! She told me never to mention to anyone in the department that she let me in there. It was off limits to everyone but the classics profs. She let me in cause I was doing a paper on the island of Thera. Wish they had invented digital cameras that we could buy back then, I would have had it with me! Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas motto: Numquam scribae ridente ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #1069 ******************************