From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #105 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 23 1998 Volume 02 : Number 105 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Award Medallions for AOA(was R.E. Scribes...) Re: [scribes]: Aquarelle? RE: [scribes]: Geographic Trends [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology RE: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends Re: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends Re: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:17:04 EDT From: Nocturnl@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Award Medallions for AOA(was R.E. Scribes...) Greetings Lady Mylisant! If you are curious about the Midrealm sumptuary customs, you may want to check out the new web page from our Minister of Protocol, His Lordship Thorvald Redhair, former Kingdom herald and all around nice guy. It's so new, our kingdom doesn't even know about it...yet :) http://members.aol.com/thorvaldr/index.html And since this kinda stuff is important for the scribes, it even has a link from the Middle Kingdom College of Scribes web site: http://members.aol.com/nocturnl/index.html Curiosity never killed the cat, it just kept her up all night doing research. Enjoy! Gwenhwyvar DS, Middle Kingdom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:29:04 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Aquarelle? >>No it wasn't the Indigo (I ruined my mortar and pestle with that but that's another story).....someone else brought a dyestuff that was aqua in colour and she ground it up and we decided that it would act too much like a lake colour and would probably be very fugitive unless we could figure out a mordant that wouldn't mess with the other colors or the paper itself. Or I was on some sort of trip from the 60's.....JimBear<< I don't think you're tripping JimBear - I think what you and Eowyn might have in mind is the Ultramarine that we had for that workshop. It came in large lumps that needed to be ground down to powder. I still have it sitting in the spice rack above my drafting table (btw, spice racks make a great way to organize all those little jars and vials we all seem to wind up having around for scribing). I don't recall who brought the ultramarine - - might have been Maritza. Of course, that still doesn't solve the problem of what is Aquarelle. And where in the world *is* Carmen Sandiego? Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:35:44 -0400 From: "Knott, Deanna" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Geographic Trends I don't know about Laurels, but, we have an obscene number of Royal peers in our Barony. Actually, the Barony that I live in is a little obscene. WE have somewhere between 80-100 active members. Out of that number we have: 8 Royal Peers 5 Pelicans 2 Laurels 3 Chivalry 8 Court barons (actually, it used to be 10, 2 of our Court Baronessess went on to become Countesses) Currently, Timothy and Gabrielle are on the throne and they are from New Jersey. The Eastern Royalty for 4 reigns before that were all from Bridge, however. I think if you get someone in an area that is good at something and can get good training, you will get clusters of talent. There is a killer archery corp in the central region out here. I'm not saying there aren't good archers everywhere in the East, there is just a higher concentration of them in the Cent. Region. The same thing happens on a local level anywhere you go, especially if it is one of the more popular and affordable arts out there. In the past couple of years, we got a guy in our group who is very enthusiastic about brewing. This has spurred a couple of other people to start researching period beverages. I was always interested in calligraphy. I had some *stuff* hanging around and, between getting a new job where I had some spare cash to dump into good pens and stuff and Kenrick got involved, which made me take it more seriously. Now have 2 scribes in our Barony and there are a couple (maybe as many as 3 or 4) more people who are interested in learning. One of them is really interested in illumination. Our Baroness got her Laurel for Cooking and garb. We kinda have a real killer cooking corp in our Barony. There are about 6 or 7 of us and we love good food. I think the key is proximity to talent and training. We need to train people within reasonable traveling distance from each other. As an example, I am into archery, heraldry, cooking and C&I. I live 25 minutes away from some of the best archers/fletchers in the Kingdom. I am apprentices to a guy who used to be our Principle herald and he lives 45 minutes away. I can be at my Laurels house for cooking in 30 (if there is traffic) and the is a C&I Laurel 17 minutes up the highway from me. There are people in the Society where the nearest laurel (for anything) is 3hours away. I can say, for a fact, that the last 4 sets of Royalty did make it to the Southern and Northern Regions at least once a reign. It was a real treat to be able to travel with some of them and see the talent that is forming way out on the edges of Our Kingdom. Yours, Avelina Keyes Du Pont Pursuivant Barony of the Bridge East Kingdom http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 > ------ > From: EowynA@aol.com > Sent: Monday,June 22,1998 9:45 PM > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: [scribes]: Geographic Trends > > asking > a more generally applicable question > > > On the other hand, one Barony, Calafia, provided 3 of the Caidan scribal > Laurels, more than any other geographic entity. Tis a great shame that > none > of the individuals is still playing .... They appeared and disappeared at > different times, so I think their geographic confluence may be > happenstance, > rather than synergy. > > Do other kingdoms notice that some Baronies/Shires/Colleges/ etc. tend to > produce more recognized (either Laurel or High-Kingdom-Awards) scribes? > If > so, do you think this is because of the synergy of working together and > learning from each other, or happenstance (such as -- the Crown has not > visited in awhile, and when They do, They recognize several worthy > individuals who happen to be pursuing the same art)? > > Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid > > ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ > Received: by mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com with SMTP;22 Jun 1998 21:45:48 -0400 > Received: from 24.4.65.87 ("port 1669"@24.4.65.87) > by Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #18654) > id <01IYJP6YYIWS0009PY@Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com> for > Knott.Deanna@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:34:25 -0800 (PST) > Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) > id SAA05885 for scribes-list; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:30:04 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com [129.46.52.129]) > by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA05881 for > ; > Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:30:02 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from moria.qualcomm.com (qualcomm.com [192.35.156.11]) > by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.14) with ESMTP id SAA04344 for > ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:28:15 -0700 (PDT) > Received: (from daemon@localhost) by moria.qualcomm.com id SAA08849 for > ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:25:42 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com(198.81.17.42) via SMTP by > moria.qualcomm.com, > id smtpdAAA0DAiVZ; Mon Jun 22 18:25:36 1998 > Received: from EowynA@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) > id OIXAa04311 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:26:58 +0000 > (EDT) > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:26:58 -0400 (EDT) > From: EowynA@aol.com > Subject: [scribes]: Geographic Trends > Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org > To: scribes@castle.org > Message-id: <5cf4a24b.358f0463@aol.com> > MIME-version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Precedence: bulk > X-Authentication-warning: castle.org: majordomo set sender to > owner-scribes@castle.org using -f > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:50:45 -0400 From: "Knott, Deanna" Subject: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Greetings, Yup, I did it. I went off topic. If this is too annoying, I don't care if the thread dies, please just don't bite my head off. Well, at least not in public, please. Something was said in an earlier post about medallions being given out with various awards. Here in the East, we don't have very many sumptuary laws. Anyone can wear a circlet, just don't have pearls sticking over the top! Now, for Royal Peers, we don't have badges, but we do have specifications for coronets. 16 or more pearls for VIscountys 6 for Barons (any flavor) Crenellations for COuntys Strawberry leaves for Duchy For peerages we have certain trappings. white belt/spurs for chivalry For Laurels there is usually a cloak, Laurel wreath-crown-thingy and a medallion, along with a scroll. For Pelicans there is usually a cloak, medallion and a scroll. Sometimes there is also a chapeau, but that is kinda rare. The question is, is it unusual in other Kingdoms to give a medaalion with a civil peerage? Is it unusual for a Royal peer to not get a coronet of some flavor with their award that a medallion would satisfy? Just curious, Avelina Keyes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:51:59 -0700 From: "Karen Jarvis (General Employment)" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Our sumptuary laws are a lot looser. The circlet rules are (if I remember right) - anyone can where a plain undecorated small circlet. AoA's can have simple decorations but no stones, protected symbols or pointy bits. GoA's are allowed teeny non-precious stones but no protected symbols or pointy bits. GoA's get medallions if they are in the orders of the Goute de Sang (Service), the Jambe de Lion (Arts and Sciences), Lion's Protector, ... Other GoA's have other things - Grey Goose Shaft (Wrist Bracer) , Order of the White Scarf (White Scarf) Peerages: Knights - white belt, unadorned gold chain, spurs. Pelicans - circlet and/or medallion with the symbol of the order on it. Laurels - circlet and/or medallion with the symbol or the order on it. I think we have the same rules for Baron(ess) and the Royal Peerages as everyone. This is off the top of my sleepy head. Lady Valerienne de Menton -----Original Message----- From: Knott, Deanna [mailto:Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com] Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 9:51 AM To: 'scribes@castle.org' Subject: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Greetings, Yup, I did it. I went off topic. If this is too annoying, I don't care if the thread dies, please just don't bite my head off. Well, at least not in public, please. Something was said in an earlier post about medallions being given out with various awards. Here in the East, we don't have very many sumptuary laws. Anyone can wear a circlet, just don't have pearls sticking over the top! Now, for Royal Peers, we don't have badges, but we do have specifications for coronets. 16 or more pearls for VIscountys 6 for Barons (any flavor) Crenellations for COuntys Strawberry leaves for Duchy For peerages we have certain trappings. white belt/spurs for chivalry For Laurels there is usually a cloak, Laurel wreath-crown-thingy and a medallion, along with a scroll. For Pelicans there is usually a cloak, medallion and a scroll. Sometimes there is also a chapeau, but that is kinda rare. The question is, is it unusual in other Kingdoms to give a medaalion with a civil peerage? Is it unusual for a Royal peer to not get a coronet of some flavor with their award that a medallion would satisfy? Just curious, Avelina Keyes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:21:23 -0400 From: Martha Knowles Subject: Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends Knott, Deanna wrote: > > I don't know about Laurels, but, we have an obscene number of Royal peers in > our Barony. Actually, the Barony that I live in is a little obscene. WE > have somewhere between 80-100 active members. Out of that number we have: > > 8 Royal Peers > 5 Pelicans > 2 Laurels > 3 Chivalry > 8 Court barons > (actually, it used to be 10, 2 of our Court Baronessess went on to > become Countesses) In our Barony, out of 80-90 members, we have: 2 Royal peers, one inactive 1 Knight 0 Pelicans (ours just moved away) 7 Laurels (yes, that's seven) 1 Court Baron Yes, I'd say it's a case of talent breeds talent, especially considering how many of our Laurels are cooking experts (and we *all* like to eat). But things change. A decade ago (or more), we had 4 knights and 2 laurels. The local scroll days are getting more crowded with new people, and the wheel turns again. Blessings, Marthe Elsbeth of Oak Hill Thor's Mountain, Meridies ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:41:25 -0700 From: Gael Stirler Subject: Re: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology Avelina Keyes wrote-- >The question is, is it unusual in other Kingdoms to give a medalion with >a civil peerage? Is it unusual for a Royal peer to not get a coronet of >some flavor with their award that a medallion would satisfy? An award of Arms, Grant or Patent IS the award and requires no medalion from the crown. The award gives the recipient a title in front of the name instead of some letters at the end of the name. It's usually a gift from a friend when a Laurel or a Pel gets a medalion And the belt, chain, and spurs that Knights get are made by the recipient, his knight, his Lady or his friends, not purchased by the Kingdom. The same is true of the coronets for Vicounties, Counties and Duchies. Even Court Barons provide their own coronets. I would oppose any move to add AoA medalions to the burden of the Kingdom. It would reduce our need for scribes and increase our reliance on non-society artisians and manufacturers. A scroll is more than a gift. It is a historical record, a legal document so to speak. It documents who got the award, when, and from whom. When trying to establish an order of presidence only a signed scroll can resolve disputes. I agree that a plain circlet is helpful in identifying who the titled gentry are without hearing their introductions. However, since some people never wear them even when allowed in their kingdom, it still causes confusion. The same would be true of medalions. Currently armigers can commision medalions bearing their arms and wear them proudly just as a court baron would commision a coronet. I think we should leave it at that. Lady Dairine mor o' u'higin Gutenberg School of Scribes http://renstore.com/articles/GSS - -- Chivalry Sports Renaissance Store now has its own domain name. Look for us now at http://RenStore.com for the best in Medieval, Renaissance, and Fantasy Merchandise. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:40:28 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends In a message dated 98-06-23 12:42:01 EDT, Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com writes: << Currently, Timothy and Gabrielle are on the throne and they are from New Jersey. The Eastern Royalty for 4 reigns before that were all from Bridge, however. >> well Tim kinda wanders the Known world and wins crowns........he was in Caid all of what? a year? and then won Crown then left after about a year......JimBear :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:40:35 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Off topic- Inter-Kingdom award anthropology In a message dated 98-06-23 12:59:37 EDT, Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com writes: << The question is, is it unusual in other Kingdoms to give a medaalion with a civil peerage? Is it unusual for a Royal peer to not get a coronet of some flavor with their award that a medallion would satisfy? Just curious, Avelina Keyes >> My medallion is drop dead gorgeous........Duke John ap Gwyndaff called me friday night before (at 10:30p.m.) and said "hear this?''(sawing in the backround and shop dwarves dropping things and going oops! and whatnot..) "I'm starting......" got it to me the next day with two hours to spare.......Sterling silver with a silver laurels wreath and a malachite in a bezel.....flip it over......cut work representation of my device quarterly vert and argent cruissly fitchy counterchanged argent and vert within a bordure counter changed and the bordure is actually a bordure(not counterchanged) because cut into it is one of my Mottoes.........several Laurels out here have beautiful cloisenne' medallions done by Mistress Louise of Woodesholme......unfortunately, icannot remember the name of the artisan (I believe a Duchess from either the East or Middle) who did one purchased by Catherine Cameron Stewart Morgan at a Estrella several years ago...I have a cross pin done by the same artisan and people covet it (hehe)-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:34:50 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Geographic Trends Greetings unto new friends and old, E'owy'n noted that Calafia has in the past produced more Scribal Laurels than any single other, none of whom are currently active, and wondered whether their proximity was happenstance or confluence. I know all three and am sad that none are active, and can certainly attest that their inactivity is unrelated and due to mundane pressures or disillusionment... As for whether there is confluence, I would say that there is some relation, because there is still a strong C&I core that survives here today with Cystennin and myself, and a new budding scriptorium in the works. I think that without Fletcher's strong influence there would be no activity here at all. I certainly would not have ever tried Calligraphy -- it was at the behest of my ex-wife, a former student of Fletcher's, that I took up the mighty pen. Of course he was already an accomplished mundane painter before he became involved with us. I have no idea who influenced the other two (Mistress Ange and who else???). Just my two cents worth. And by the way, I had a great time at the KWHS in Tucson and got to meet a number of our company. Well Met!!! And many thanks to our cousins in Atenveldt for a wonderful weekend. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:47:18 -0700 From: Laurie Jenkins Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal I did think about it, after I posted :) and it would be a problem. There isn't a symbol or device for a plain AoA or GoA, so if some Kingdom wanted to do a universal medallion, they would either have to open up a new order or try and get the College of Arms to do something for all the Kingdoms. No doubt opening up kettles of fish in any case. :) cheers, aliskye >>> Curtis & Mary 06/22 7:08 PM >>> Laurie Jenkins wrote: big snip (We do have > medallions that are paid for by the Kingdom that are given for most > Awards, though oddly now that I think about it, there isn't one for > an AoA). ****************************************** MMMMmmmmm,What would you put on an AoA medallion, anyway? Think about it. In Atenveldt anyway, there is no way, by looking to tell if someone has an AoA or a GoA or not. You know because you know the person and saw/heard the thing done, or you are introduced to Lord so&so or His Lordship so&so.. .. . I don't know if I had a point, except that yes, AoA scrolls should perhaps be at the top of the list compared to others..... mairi, Atenveldt ! ! ! ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #105 *****************************