From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #93 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, June 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 093 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal [scribes]: gold flecks [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous Re: [scribes]: books on illumination [scribes]: Introduction: Jasmine de Cordoba Re: [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous RE: [scribes]: Gender Bias Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal Re: [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal Re: [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous Re: [scribes]: Introduction: Jasmine de Cordoba Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:47:15 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal I think you have a very good point and I'm a bit confused that people think they should have a scroll for cooking their first event or helping out or this and that. For things like that and personal thanks, I buy them a Nifty Thing(tm). Some little period thing I think they'd like, or some materials for whatever it is they do....just like I reward bards with rings and baubles. I don't have any time for scrolls that aren't on the backlog......I don't know anyone who does... The thing with Royal Peers and so forth, is that THEIR big prize is sitting on the thrones, then getting a County or Ducal coronet. And then you want me to give them a SCROLL besides? How many prizes do they need? I mean, honestly? They get several months of sitting on thrones and being treated like Royalty. Sure, it's also a job, but they fought to get it. It's the prize they want, along with the hat....I think AoA's are far more important. Getting one, and getting the original scroll for it helps encourage you to keep going, and really does a lot for your enthusiasm level. Face it, we all enjoy getting something cool like that. It boosts our energy level and adds spark. I think the Royal Peers get enough of that during a reign along with the hats and deference afterwards. Miri > In my opinion, (not that it is worth even two cents), part of the > problem is that *everyone* deserves more than we can possibly give them. > We just had an event in our Shire where we had at least two dozen people > work their butts off for no pay, no awards, nothing but all the thanks I > could give them. (And some compliments from those who attended). I think > each of them deserves something for their work, but I can't do 24 scrolls > for them! The problem with scrolls, is that creating enough scrolls to > provide sufficient thanks for people doing everything else overburdens > another segment of the Society - the scribes. I agree that Peerages and > Royal peerages are special and deserve special notice with a nice scroll. > I agree that getting an AOA (and being admitted to the ranks of the > nobility) is special and deserves special notice with a nice scroll. > Winning your first tourney or A&S competition, running your first event, > cooking your first feast, getting a GOA, becoming a Baron/ess etc. etc. > are all special events to the person who is recognized. I don't know how > to choose who gets top priority unless we try to let the scribes pick by > deciding what scrolls they will do. > > Part of the problem is that we are all conditioned to believe that > the scroll is the appropriate symbol of thanks and praise for all these > events. Maybe someone can think of a way to get people to accept something > other than scrolls so we can spread the load. I know one scribe on this > list has done a couple of pieces of art for awards that were paintings and > not traditional scrolls. I have seen one Japanese screen and one piece of > stained glass as well (although they were sort of "scroll like" with > wording etc). Do you think anyone would ever except alternatives that were > more extreme? ("Here is a helmet for your Knighthood with acid etching > brass decorations showing your Patent of Arms" or "here is a cloak with > embroidered decoration that represent your new station".) Or would people > accept the alternative and then want a scroll too? > > Oh well, a Friday is a bad day to solve the problems of the world. > Maybe I can get to it next tuesday. :) > > Dorinda Courtenay ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 1998 08:48:24 -0700 From: "Marisa Herzog" Subject: [scribes]: gold flecks 8:38 AM 6/19/98 Regarding gold flecking on Middle-eastern illumination, with all the beautiful marbling one sees in this style, would it be possible that the tiny bits left over from gilding were floated in a marbling medium and applied to other paper in a similar manner? I don't know, but it seems like it might be a plausible technique... - -brid ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:59:48 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous In a message dated 6/19/98 10:31:12 AM, Dorinda_E_Courtine- White@notesbridge.cummins.com wrote: <> >Part of the problem is that we are all conditioned to believe that >the scroll is the appropriate symbol of thanks and praise for all these >events. Maybe someone can think of a way to get people to accept something >other than scrolls so we can spread the load. I know one scribe on this >list has done a couple of pieces of art for awards that were paintings and >not traditional scrolls. I have seen one Japanese screen and one piece of >stained glass as well (although they were sort of "scroll like" with >wording etc). Do you think anyone would ever except alternatives that were >more extreme? ("Here is a helmet for your Knighthood with acid etching >brass decorations showing your Patent of Arms" or "here is a cloak with >embroidered decoration that represent your new station".) Or would people >accept the alternative and then want a scroll too? > Being as you asked.. <> As long as the token is proper for the award, why not? IMHO Scrolls of some sort should be give with AoA, GoA, Peerages and Royal Peerages. For the other awards we have, it would be really spiff to have the badge made into something the recipient could use. (The Laurel hood Alaric recieved was smashing!! Maybe we could get basket hilts or vambraces with the Alce on it, a stamped leather quiver for grand master bowman, boxes with Sycamores carved or painted on them to help organize tools, etc...) As long as the badge of the order is on the item, why not get creative? If someone really wants a scroll too, they could always commission one. I have been most touched in the past by seeing people called into court and thanked with some personal token from the Royalty. I'm not talking about a scroll or award (something that exists only to say "thanks"), but a piece of jewelry or a weapon owned by the giver themself. This seems to add a personal touch and is a more spontaneous thing. Who said an autocrat, or any of us for that matter, can't hand out tokens? I have given things, other than scrolls, as gifts... Rolo's have become almost synonomous with a good job in the lists :-) OK, maybe not everyone is as sentimental as I am. Maybe a scroll that says what award was given, by who, for what, etc... is more rewarding to some. I happen to like scrolls too, imagine that ;-) But personally, I have a handful of tokens and memories of plain old spoken "thank yous" that mean more to me than my entire scroll collection. :-) > Oh well, a Friday is a bad day to solve the problems of the world. >Maybe I can get to it next tuesday. :) > Does that mean we can pencil you in and nobody else should be *volunteered*? ;-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc >Dorinda Courtenay >(Dorinda Courtine-White) > >Shire of Heronter, AEthelmearc >(Jamestown, NY) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:08:22 -0400 (EDT) From: hollis@slic.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: books on illumination One book that I have and like is Margaret Morgan's Color Decoration & Illumination in Calligraphy. I bought it at Coliseum Books in NYC on a trip, but I've seen it at the local bookstore; if we have it up here in the boonies, you can probably get it. Amazon probably would be happy to sell you a copy. Copyright 1995, published 1997 by Dover books. =20 ISBN 0-486-29507-9 (pbk.) It includes information about basic illumination, samples of a few different hands, and some projects to do to give yourself experience. I've found it useful as a reference a few times. Hope this helps, Hollis Easter Hammurabi At 09:42 AM 6/19/1998 +0200, you wrote: >I have several books on calligraphy, are there any tips on books that more >geared towards illumination? > >Anna de Byxe > > > > > > > > > >''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' > >"Anna's LARP Craft Links Page" >http://www.bibks.uu.se/58/home.html > >"Aros H=E4rads Hemsida" >http://hem.passagen.se/owly > > > > > > - ---------------------------- Hollis Easter hollis@slic.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead, anthropologist Yes, I did get a perfect score on my SAT-I's... See the picture at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2436/SAT52698.gif - ---------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:04:14 -0400 From: "Gaylin Walli" Subject: [scribes]: Introduction: Jasmine de Cordoba Greetings. The welcome message upon joining this list suggested an introduction. Please accept this as such. My name is Jasmine Isabella Maria Magdelena de Cordoba, or just Jasmine. I am physically located in Pontiac or Southfield, Michigan (metro-Detroit) depending on whether I'm working or simply living. I have no true group affiliation in that I don't regularly attend branch meetings. I do attend various local guilds' meetings and household meetings, however, so don't consider me a complete putz. I am the founder of the Shire of Mystig Waetru in Michigan's Upper Penninsula, though I no longer live there. My interest in the scribal arts is thus: I wish to study more fully the plants and fibers that were used in scribal arts during the time periods covered by the SCA. Someday, I would love to be apprenticed to a Master who could help guide me in my research into these plants and fibers and prod me to teach or write about some of what I've learned. In addition to plant and fiber interests, I have a secret love for the illuminations of early medieval Spain which are sometimes refered to as the Mozarambic arts. I especially am interested in the changes to these arts over time as more illuminators visited English and European workshops and brought skills and information back to Spain. I confess that I am an wretched calligrapher. I have little talent for it. My illumination skills are somewhat better, though not nearly all that fantastic. My attempts so far have been heart-felt and reasonably well researched for form although not necessarily well-executed or created with period supplies and materials. I hope to correct that in the very near future. Jasmine de Cordoba, Midrealm (Metro-Detroit area of Michigan) jasmine@infoengine.com or g.walli@infoengine.com "Si enim alicui placet mea devotio, gaudebo; si autem nulli placet, memet ipsam tamen juvat quod feci." - -- Hroswith of Gandersheim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:37:47 -0400 From: Donna Kenton Subject: Re: [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous >But personally, I have a handful of tokens and memories of plain old spoken >"thank yous" that mean more to me than my entire scroll collection. :-) I'd have to second that. I have a lovely pin given me by a Queen, and it lives on my hat. I get more fun out of that than the scrolls on the wall. Mind you, I love my scrolls. I just don't "use" them as much. Rosalinde ____________________________________________________________________________ Lady Rosalinde De Witte/Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com * http://www.dabbler.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:49:28 -0700 From: Karen Williams Subject: RE: [scribes]: Gender Bias Avelina Keyes writes: >>People (both boys and girls) generally don't sit around and say,'I wanna be a calligrapher when I grow up.' They might say,'I wanna be an artist.' But, for the most part, I think calligraphy is a forgotten art.<< I must be different, because when I was a little kid, I wanted to be a calligrapher when I grew up. In fact, I taught myself when I was fourteen. Branwen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:21:29 -0700 From: Laurie Jenkins Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal Dorinda Courtenay writes: I agree that getting an AOA (and being admitted to the ranks of the nobility) is special and deserves special notice with a nice scroll. Winning your first tourney or A&S competition, running your first event, cooking your first feast, getting a GOA, becoming a Baron/ess etc. etc. are all special events to the person who is recognized. I don't know how to choose who gets top priority unless we try to let the scribes pick by deciding what scrolls they will do. Part of the problem is that we are all conditioned to believe that the scroll is the appropriate symbol of thanks and praise for all these events. ********* I think of each of our different Kingdoms has different expectations on these things. For most of the things listed above, a scroll isn't customary in Caid at all. Pretty much the only thing scrolls are done for in Caid are awards (with a few rare exceptions such as the petition of a new group for elevation in status). Caid is also one of the Kingdoms with a backlog system and no expectation for getting an actual scroll at the time of the giving of an award. (We do have medallions that are paid for by the Kingdom that are given for most Awards, though oddly now that I think about it, there isn't one for an AoA). The exception being that we are getting better at doing Patent-level award scrolls at the time of a peerage elevation (generally with 6-8 weeks of lead time). I think it would be very difficult to change the expectations of an entire Kingdom as traditional ways of doing things have a lot of inertia. If the expectation is that you will get an award scroll when you get an award, there will be disappointment if you don't. Caid has gone from a system where everyone who got an award was placed on a backlog list for a scroll that someone would do someday. In time that list got to be over 1000 scrolls and included people who no longer played in the SCA or had moved away and were no longer reachable. A few years ago the Scribe Armarius changed the system and said to the populace, if you want a scroll you have to ask for it. The current backlog is around 200 with most of the scrolls assigned to people. It basically puts the scribes in the catbird seat as most of the assignments on the list (kept so that duplication of scrolls isn't done) come from scribes themselves who say I want to do Lord Foopy's mid-level service achievement award (fill in name here :). There are no deadlines except that scrolls are presented at Coronation's and generally have to be turned in at the Heraldry meeting prior so they can be signed and sealed. So scribes set their own deadlines (do I want to finish these by May for June Coronation or wait until October for November Coronation). Oh dear.....I seem to have rambled quite a bit. My apologies for to those who aren't interested in the Kingdom anthropology stuff. aliskye lauriej@fox.com Los Angeles, CA/Lyondemere, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:31:58 -0400 (EDT) From: stacey jill wahrman Subject: Re: [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous I'm with Eibhlin, I've gotten many small tokens of appreciation that meant a lot to me, both on a Baronial/Kingdom level, from assorted people who liked my artwork, and from autocrats of events I helped with. My barony, Ponte Alto (Northern VA) gives out beads as thank-yous for jobs well done on events, for officers on a yearly basis at Baronial Birthday, as encouragement, etc. The week after I moved down here from East Kingdom I helped out with a local demo, and was floored to be given a bead in Baronial Court a week after that. It was just a little bead about the size of a pea, I don't even know whether it's glass or plastic, but it meant a lot to me to be given a token of someone's thanks, and I never forgot the feeling of pride that Their Excellencies even noticed what I'd done, and chose to recognize it with their personal thanks. I've gotten small medallions from autocrats as a thank-you for helping out, and by far one of my most prized possessions is a scissor chatelaine/pincushion that Duchess Arielle gave me out of the blue for a scroll I'd entered in an A&S display. It was my second scroll, first at kingdom level, and the first time I'd ever put anything in a display. I was so bewildered I thought someone had accidentally knocked an A&S project (the pincushion) onto my scroll, and started looking for the documentation that went with it so I could put it back. My very amused Laurel explained what it was, and I don't know if she realizes it, but I've seen people light up the same way when gifted with one of her laurel leaf beads for a job well done. There are a lot of ways to reward people for jobs well done, and they don't neccessarily have to involve scrolls, or even awards. I doubt that my Baron and Baroness remember what they've given out beads for over the years, but I'm sure most of the recipients can tell you what each and every bead in their collection signifies. I wouldn't expect Duchess Arielle to remember that she once gave me an embroidered scissor chatelaine because she liked one of my scrolls, but I wear it often and with pride. Maybe we need to think about rewarding people in small ways as well as large ones, to make sure that an AoA isn't the first form of recognition that someone gets. For awards themselves, I really like the idea of items besides scrolls that are related to what the recipient is being rewarded for. This would both take some of the burden off of scribes and give other artisans a chance to show off their work. As usual, I apologize for my verbosity :-) Arianwen - -=*=-=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=- Stacey Wahrman wahrman@wam.umd.edu Like a parrot in a picture window, I can see where I want to be. But repeated blows to my feathered little head Have taught me not to fly straight. -- The Bobs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:39:53 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal In a message dated 98-06-19 10:31:12 EDT, Dorinda_E_Courtine- White@notesbridge.cummins.com writes: << In my opinion, (not that it is worth even two cents), part of the problem is that *everyone* deserves more than we can possibly give them. We just had an event in our Shire where we had at least two dozen people work their butts off for no pay, no awards, nothing but all the thanks I could give them. (And some compliments from those who attended). I think each of them deserves something for their work, but I can't do 24 scrolls for them! > Isn't the real idea to let them know YOU appreciate them and their work? We constantly complain that we don't get thanked for the stuff we produce...not even a card. I have a humble suggestion......When I was being elevated, there were non members of the Order that I wished to invite to my vigil, and what do you do for that? I took one of my registered badges (fieldless, a crosscrosslet fitchy quartered argent and vert) and surmounted a laurel wreath on it (which was also done for me by a borduier in green and white silk for my cloak) I measured it out so that it would fit cross ways across a standard 81/2"x11 1/2" sheet and had it coloured xeroxed three times mounted them side by side on a sheet of paper that I had laid out similarly, but had calligraphed the invitation info on and laid out 3 across......went to Kinkos had them shoot 12 colour copies on one side(giving me 36 when finished) on card stock and then they flipped them over and did the calligraphy side in black and white (total cost: $24.00) I even used their papercutter. Everyone that received one said the same thing.....cool invitation. The best part is, I still have the outer artwork, can now do my thank you cards.....JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:39:55 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal In a message dated 98-06-19 11:54:31 EDT, heather@pop.net writes: << The thing with Royal Peers and so forth, is that THEIR big prize is sitting on the thrones, then getting a County or Ducal coronet. And then you want me to give them a SCROLL besides? How many prizes do they need? I mean, honestly? >> I understand your point. But ask any Royal Peer just after they step down (especially firstimers) and usually they say "I knew it would be work but I had no idea how much work......" they litterally lose their lives for about eight months. One of the things that we sometimes do out here in Caid, is if TRMs are parents, either they or their successors declare the children "Prince(ss) Royale".... I've done scrolls for (now) Duke and Duchess Guy and Darla of Castle Kirk's 3 boys "Prince Royale" scrolls (as three interconnecting scrolls which connected to Guy and Darla's scrolls to make one big scroll (but could be seperated and still look intact)) as some small compensation for them losing some of their parent's attention for the better part of a year.......JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:39:58 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: scrolls as thank yous In a message dated 98-06-19 12:46:06 EDT, donna@dabbler.com writes: << I'd have to second that. I have a lovely pin given me by a Queen, and it lives on my hat. I get more fun out of that than the scrolls on the wall. >> In Caid there is a thank you given by the Queen at the end of her reign that is a silver cresent pin (most times) with the Queen's sigil on it and sometimes a jewell called the Signum Regina (considered quite the honor) given to those who throughout her reign have been of considerable help to Her Majesty. The Kingdom actually pays for some of them and then Her Majesty pays for any additional ones.....I last served on Queen Caroline's court and before she stepped down she gave out the Signae..... I held the basket as she gave them to the recipients (all very deserving individuals) to be honest, I felt a little crestfallen but I also couldn't fault any of her choices. Later in the evening we were packing up to leave and were making our goodbyes when (now Countess Caroline) asked to speak with me a moment......She took my hand in hers, and she told me that she mistakenly was told she could only give out a specific number of Signae, and wanted me to know that, had she known otherwise, she would have proudly honored me publicly as well. Silver tarnishes......that memory never will-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:39:56 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Introduction: Jasmine de Cordoba In a message dated 98-06-19 12:18:45 EDT, g.walli@infoengine.com writes: << My name is Jasmine Isabella Maria Magdelena de Cordoba, or just Jasmine >> Welcome Jasmine-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:39:54 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]- Re- Scribal In a message dated 98-06-19 11:54:31 EDT, heather@pop.net writes: << For things like that and personal thanks, I buy them a Nifty Thing(tm). Some little period thing I think they'd like, or some materials for whatever it is they do....just like I reward bards with rings and baubles. I don't have any time for scrolls that aren't on the backlog......I don't know anyone who does... >> Ghislaine is Caid's "Bellows Herald" (prusuivant in charge of field heralds at Kingdom events and coordinates with Crescent at Coronation) and this past Queen's Champion Tourney she paid her heralds with strings of pearls and garnets.....they all loved it(or so they said)-JimBear ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #93 ****************************