From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #85 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, June 17 1998 Volume 02 : Number 085 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox [scribes]: Foil Leafing product Re: [scribes]: Foil Leafing product Re: [scribes]: Foil Leafing product Re: [scribes]: New scribe! Re: [scribes]: Caid Scribes list working Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox Re: [scribes]: Gilding help Re: [scribes]: scribal soapbox Re: [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:57:50 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) Greetings from Eibhlin Aralyn, are you coming down to AEthelmearc Academy by chance? I am teaching a *hands on* class on gold leafing and stamping. We'll be working with both gum ammoniac and gesso. If you do come, bring your practice pieces. I may be able to tell what is going wrong with yours just by the appearance of the gold. Your problem could be that the size is not wet enough. I'm having a lot of trouble getting my gold leaf to stick too right now. I have even had to wet the area with a paintbrush instead of just blowing on it. Thankfully I know what kind of a mark that leaves (little bare spots with fringed edges of gold) and was able to catch it after only a few splotches instead of trying to troubleshoot after the entire scroll was done. Some other causes of splotching Too much water, honey or sugar will make not only the gold stick, but will stick to your glassine. The splotches look similar... and mottled is the perfect term for how this looks. If a test glob of size gets hard (not sticky and pliable) when dry then the problem is too much moisture. Don't get the size as wet before leafing. If the problem really is too much honey or sugar, add a little bit of slaked plaster. Burnishing before the moisture under the gold has evaporated will also leave spots, but these look more like smears. If this is what's happening, all you have to do is burnish lightly... just enough to make sure the gold is stuck to the size and let it sit at least overnight. You should be able to bring up a mirror polish then. Sometimes the gesso wasn't stirred enough as you were applying it and started to separate. If this is what happened, you can try to paint a thin layer of gum ammoniac on top and try to fix it... but it will be noticeable. Chalk it up to experience and know you'll do differently next time. :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:00:04 EDT From: MRomero106@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox My Turn, My turn! ::Stepping onto the soapbox......:: I am wondering if we arent beginning to get to another arguement that happens all the time. The one that goes with the first person saying something like.... "I am in the SCA for the experience and the thrill of living something to learn it." the second person then says... "Well, I am in it to get things and I would like to get a Harp then, a Leaf, then a Laurel, then and Knighthood." It may be that people who get scrolls are simular in these two respects. Those who appreciate the fact that someone has spent hours of work learning an art that they can share with others even if the final product is not neccessarily the Best they have ever seen, and those who think I dont care what level they are producing at I deserve the best that can be done and if my opinion of it is that it can be done "better" I will get someone to do that for me. Sometimes we forget that there are people working hard to produce items and gifts for others. Sometimes these things are very honestly sloppy and not very nice,BUT someone thought well enough of someone else that they wanted to help out in a way they thought would be appreciated. Often these know that their work wasnt the best. HOWEVER! I would say that if a person has achieved a level of ability then they should be producing at that level everytime, and if they know they arent able to produce an appreciable piece in a time frame given they should be honest enough to say "No thank you I think someone else may suit your needs at this time." ::Stepping off the soapbox and looking for tomatos to begin flying:: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Naquiib Zaid al-fallah hajji (Merced Romero,Jr.) Sable Swan Herald (and scribal wannabe) Barony of Fett Burg Principality of Cynagua Kingdom of the west (whew!) Stockton,Ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:18:07 -0400 (EDT) From: hollis@slic.com Subject: [scribes]: Foil Leafing product Hey Scribes, I just discovered a rather interesting product down at Ames. (The local bargain store, similar to Wal-mart, Kmart, or any other chain department store). It's called Foil Leafing. It costs $7.95 US for a roll of foil and a bottle of adhesive... Seems to work quite similarly to gold leaf, except that it's a transfer foil... It looks quite nice... I'll try to put up an example to show you all... Anyway, it seems cool. Hammurabi - ---------------------------- Hollis Easter hollis@slic.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead, anthropologist Yes, I did get a perfect score on my SAT-I's... See the picture at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2436/SAT52698.gif - ---------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:16:21 -0400 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Foil Leafing product Hammurabi, The main problems with imitation gold (bronze) leaf are: 1) it tarnishes over time, and 2) the adhesive that's packaged with it is usually oil-based, for use on wood and plaster (if you use it on paper the oil may spread through the fibers, and discolor the area around the leaf). If you substitute a water-based size (gesso, PVA, Elmer's) it might work for illumination. A couple of weeks ago I had the pleasure of holding a leaf (sheepskin vellum) from an English psalter done @1300 A.D. The versals were still vivid red, and the gold leaf was still bright. I wonder if anything we write today will survive into the 28th Century? - -Pete- Gwer Rychen von Bern ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:15:26 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Foil Leafing product I've tried some of the transfer foils - the ones that are made to use on metal or wood have an oil or solvent based adhesive (as another poster to this list pointed out) which would limit their use on paper. However, some of the transfer foils are made to be used on paper, and have an acrylic based adhesive. I was given some of the foil that is made to be used on cars and it doesn't work with the acrylic adhesive that came with the other foil. This was really annoying, because the foil was very nice looking; according to the donor, it was 10 karet gold. If I were doing something decorative (not a scroll) for a single use-like a REALLY CLASSY invitation to be sent to royalty, just for instance- and I wanted dots or little leaves in gold, I might use transfer foil, but my experience is that it is hard to do larger areas and have them turn out smooth. Luighseach ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:34:46 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: New scribe! In a message dated 98-06-16 17:10:31 EDT, remsimm9@uwc.edu writes: << Hello all, I am very interested in working on scrolls... I am no good at calligraphy but can paint pretty well and love to draw. Can I ask for some help to get started? Is it possible to just make painted scroll blanks and donate them to my Principality and Kingdom? What should I do to get started? Thanks!!! Gwen ****************** Northshield, Midrealm ****************** >> Hi Gwen! Welcome to the list, the Dragon Signet for Midrealm is Lady Gwenhwyvar Nocturnal, a very nice lady she could probably help you get started. Please feel free to ask questions, and we have a webpage with FAQs but someone else will have to give you that info.....JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:34:48 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Caid Scribes list working In a message dated 98-06-16 19:19:15 EDT, Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com writes: << This is just for the Caid scribes - I sent directions to my place to the "Caid Scribes" list earlier today but haven't seen it post back to me - did anyone get it? Tetchubah >> I've tried several times to sign on perhaps I'm doing it wrong?-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:34:50 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox In a message dated 98-06-16 20:18:09 EDT, MRomero106@AOL.COM writes: << My Turn, My turn! ::Stepping onto the soapbox......:: >> I have two scrolls done by people I love very much.......My AoA was done in a 14thc bar and ivy style...........when I got it I ran up to her and hugged the heck out of her...(Picture a 300lb. bear running up to and hugging a 130 slip of a girl) my wife commissioned it for me from her. My Laurel scroll was done by my student and it was her first scroll ever on vellum with period pigs and 23kt gold I made her put it into the People's prize tourney the day after I got Laureled and it won People's choice. both are heading to the framers in the next week or so. I have 3 scrolls outstanding my Harp, Lux, and Dolphin. I got my Royal Recognition of Excellence with six other people, what the Court scribe did was pretty cool she prepared seven copies of the document (not a scroll) and rotated each person to the top of the document and did that recipient's name slightly larger..... I wouldn't have that document if the other names weren't on it as we all were honored together for work that we had done together- JimBear (who has a large backlog himself) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:34:39 EDT From: Aralyn67@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gilding help In a message dated 98-06-16 16:42:43 EDT, randyaf@provide.net writes: > I'll offer help. but I need more information: > > 1) Is there a gesso already on the page now. If so tell me exactly what > ingredients are in it and HOW MUCH of each. > > 2) What gesso are you planning on using. What is going to be in it, > and how much of each. What type of metal are you going to use on this final > process. > > 3) Please try to be very specific and give as much detail on > techniques as you can. Are you laying gesso with a brush or pen? What is > the viscosity like when you lay it? Is it being stired every couple of > minutes as you use it? How many seconds between when you breath on the > gesso (to the point where it is tacky to the touch) and when you actually > have leaf onto it? Are you testing the gesso first? If so, specifically > how? > I've been testing different mixtures on some parchment trimmings. I learned the hard way, having already ruined my first attempt, a signifigant lose of time and materials, not to practice new techniques for the first time on the piece your working on. From the advice thats been coming in (thank you all so much!!!!) I can see I've made just about every mistake I probably could. I haven't been useing any gesso at all, just various sizes and bole. I didn't think I needed it because I was trying to do flat gilding . My first attempt was a half and half mixture of Gum Arabic and honey which I painted directly onto the page with a brush. This made basically a huge sticky mess, too much honey maybe. I have since tried rabbit skin glue and bole, but I simmered the glue to melt it so that may explain why that failed (in a double boiler but it was bubbling a bit). I mixed the simmered glue with bole till it was like gauche should be. It tended to set up into gellatin as I was painting. Then I tried Gum Ammoniac with and without bole. I simmered the ammoniac crystals in the microwave to melt them into the water then strained the resulting liquid to remove twiggy bits. (someone told me that had success this way). Some of this I painted directly onto the page and some I mixed to normal painting consistency with the bole. All of these methods were painted onto parchment bits, allowed to dry and then I blew on them for a few seconds through a straw and then applied the gold as quickly as possible using a soft brush and tweezers. I'm not terribly adept at menuvering the gold, 23 1/2 kt. loose leaf, yet so perhaps I'm not getting it there quick enough. I let them sit for a few minutes and then tried to clean up the edges with a brush then burnish those areas that actually had gold stick. Mostly it just rubbed away. I got the best adhesion using a commercial sizing but couldn't burnish it without smearing. Thanks again, Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:34:47 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribal soapbox In a message dated 98-06-16 18:58:36 EDT, daffyd@worldpath.net writes: << Maybe this could be a standardized form that is included in each Kingdom's signet office standards book, and/or sent with each scroll assignment. The sheet could go home with the scroll,(possibly make a second copy for the signet office?) and at least the recipient would have some idea of what was involved in the scroll's construction. What does everyone think? (Be gentle with me:) Chiara da Ravenna >> I think it's a great idea.....In Caid scrolls are given in Court 2-3 times a reign ( we work on the backlog/promissory system) it would be good if when they are given out the information besides who did what was read before the populace seeing as some scrolls have litterally hundreds of hours in them- JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:44:32 EDT From: Aralyn67@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) I'll definately be going to the Academy and if there is a seat left I'll certainly take your class. I really want to get the hang of this. I was a bit daunted by the costs involved and so let learning this go far too long. I really hate seeing past scrolls on peoples walls tarnishing because I've used imitation gold leaf, paint or ink. I was going to quote the parts of your reply that I think apply to my mistakes but I think on one test piece or another I've made each of them! Aralyn ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #85 ****************************