From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #84 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 084 In this issue: [scribes]: Gilding help Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA [scribes]: New scribe! RE: [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) [scribes]: Black Hours [scribes]: scribal soapbox [scribes]: Caid Scribes list working ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:41:42 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Gilding help >Hello all, > > I have a County scroll on which I am working which is VERY late and I'm >getting desparate. I cannot get the gilding right. I have to date been >working with only the imitation gold leaf and commercial size, or gold ink or >gauche, but really want to learn to do the real thing. Especially for this >scroll as it is for a friend. I just can't seem to get the hang of it. I've >tried gum arabic and honey, gum ammoniac, gum ammoniac and Armenian bole, >rabbit skin glue and Armenian bole, and even the commercial size, with and >without bole (this gave the best initial adhesion but couldn't be burnished). >Generally it just doesn't seem to stick. If the gold adheres at all its >patchy. Mistress Cori Ghora and I spent an entire evening last week trying >various mixtures and had only limited success on any of them. So any advice >would be greatly appreciated. > >Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir I'll offer help. but I need more information: 1) Is there a gesso already on the page now. If so tell me exactly what ingredients are in it and HOW MUCH of each. 2) What gesso are you planning on using. What is going to be in it, and how much of each. What type of metal are you going to use on this final process. 3) Please try to be very specific and give as much detail on techniques as you can. Are you laying gesso with a brush or pen? What is the viscosity like when you lay it? Is it being stired every couple of minutes as you use it? How many seconds between when you breath on the gesso (to the point where it is tacky to the touch) and when you actually have leaf onto it? Are you testing the gesso first? If so, specifically how? The following is a piece on gilding which I sent into this list some time back: Hide glue should NEVER be boiled. It wrecks the adhesiveness. Also, the adhesiveness declines gradually the more times you heat it. Use a double boiler to heat hide glue. Hide glue/water proportions are different for gilding than for making gesso. For gesso use the proportions on the package. For gilding I use a 1 part granuals to 14 parts water by VOLUME. Sweeteners like sugar or honey are added to make it flexible for the page and to help stay a bit moist longer for laying leaf by breath. Bulk formers like ground gypsum (the same thing as slaked plaster), CaSO4, chalk, or whiting, are added to make it stick up off the page a SLIGHT amount. Not much more than the height of the parchment or paper's surface texture. Softening materials like ground bole (a kind of red ochre) or white lead, are added to help make the material burnish smoother so the gold looks glassy. Your best bet in adding honey to gesso for gilding is to purposely make the gesso with slightly too little honey, paint out a test, let it dry a while, and see if it dries without being tacky. Then moisten with breath. If it gets tacky then, you are in business. If not add a little more honey. Of course if you have it dry and stay stickey, there is a fatal surplus of honey and you should not use it as such. For gesso on a panel, sweetener is unimportant. Just add yourbulk former an Cennini says. For gilding frames I understand one only uses glue and bole, then moistens with a brush and lays whole sheets of gold at a time with one of those "gilder's tip" brushes. I have never done this, but saw some of the process in the back rooms at the Chicago Art Institute. Ranthulfr Asparlundr OL, KSCA The amounts I use are in a sake cup warmed in a double boiler: Place 1/ tsp of melted hide glue, add four or five drops of honey depending on how strong the honey is, add 1/4 tsp of a powder mixture of 1 part bole mixed and ground smooth with 4 parts slaked plaster. Mix these ingredients in the cup. It is important to put the honey and glue in first. Otherwise mixing is harder. Next, paint a shallow test layer. Dry it. Paint one or two more layers until it is thick enough to be taller than the page texture. Let it dry all the way (your gesso should be covered and saved in the meantime). When totally dry, moisten with breath and gild. It is really important not to lay a pool of thick fluid when you are laying gesso. If you do that it will sink in the middle as it dries and it will separate the ingredients somewhat. This might be your problem. Good luck! Ranthulfr Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:43:31 -0700 From: Celeste Chadwick Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA I have so far received 3 scrolls: Award of Arms - Photocopied & Hand-painted Jambe de Lion (An Tir Arts & Sciences GoA) - Hand calligraphed & Illuminated Baroness's Champion of Arts - Hand calligraphed & Illuminated (A close friend of mine's very FIRST attempt at scribing) I wouldn't consider any of them a "bad scroll", but I do admit that my very first one (AoA) could have been done better. In previous reigns (This keeps differing depending who's on the throne) in An Tir, Award of Arms scrolls are photocopied and then hand-painted. Whomever painted mine did an okay job with the painting, but the finishing was JUST SLOPPY... They painted in the colours, but neglected to re-do the black outlining. I did the outlining myself as looking at an unfinished scroll makes me twitch... The Jambe de Lion was beautiful, but I have to admit that out of the three, my favourite scroll was the only one not given to me by the crown -- my Champion's scroll. I could be biased because it was made for me specifically in mind whereas the other two weren't... but I also have to admit that the workmanship on my Champion's Scroll was far beyond what was extended on the other two scrolls. I personally think that this was partially to do with the fact that my Jambe de Lion was a rush job because the King & Queen at the time decided to do ALL of their scrolls hand-done without doing promissories or anything. The other reason was that the person doing my Champion's was new at scribing and very aware of the need for it to be good. Perhaps I'm wrong... =) But I wouldn't want my scrolls any other way... I appreciate ALL of them for what they are to me. A landmark in my time in the SCA. I wouldn't want them re-done, even by a Laurel or a professional painter. Her Ladyship Celeste de la Montagne Barony of Lions Gate, Kingdom of An Tir At 12:28 PM 6/16/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-16 12:11:20 EDT, bhw@psychology.nottingham.ac.uk >writes: > >> and b) it devalues >> the art and effort of scribes by making it not at all special to have >> someone create an original work of art for you: to the extent that people >> complain about scrolls that may represent 20+ hours work, because >> it is not exactly what they wanted... >> > >This is another issue that we should be dealing with altogeather. I'm very >tired of being asked to redo scrolls for people who got a "bad scroll". >Someone put forth their best effort and many hours to create that "bad scroll" >and sometimes I think people's standards have become so inflated they fail to >see this. As a local guildminister I try to use beginner scrolls on a local >level or as prommisories, while their makers get more practice, but believe >that ANY scroll should be appreciated. > > >Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:58:56 -0500 From: Regina Subject: [scribes]: New scribe! Hello all, I am very interested in working on scrolls... I am no good at calligraphy but can paint pretty well and love to draw. Can I ask for some help to get started? Is it possible to just make painted scroll blanks and donate them to my Principality and Kingdom? What should I do to get started? Thanks!!! Gwen ****************** Northshield, Midrealm ****************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:31:06 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy/chiara Subject: RE: [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) Greetings, forwarded by postmaster@castle.org! You wrote: =BBHello all, =BB I have a County scroll on which I am working which is VERY late a= nd I'm =BBgetting desparate. I cannot get the gilding right. I have to date be= en =BBworking with only the imitation gold leaf and commercial size, or gold= ink =BBor =BBgauche, but really want to learn to do the real thing. Especially for= this =BBscroll as it is for a friend. I just can't seem to get the hang of it= .=20 =BBI've =BBtried gum arabic and honey, gum ammoniac, gum ammoniac and Armenian b= ole, =BBrabbit skin glue and Armenian bole, and even the commercial size, with= and =BBwithout bole (this gave the best initial adhesion but couldn't be =BBburnished). =BBGenerally it just doesn't seem to stick. If the gold adheres at all i= ts =BBpatchy. Mistress Cori Ghora and I spent an entire evening last week = trying =BBvarious mixtures and had only limited success on any of them. So any = advice =BBwould be greatly appreciated. =20 =BBAralyn Thorgrimsdottir =20 Here's an acrylic gesso recipe that I've used with fair success with imitation gold: 5 parts acrylic gesso 4 parts acrylic gloss medium varnish (Liquitex or equivalent) 1 part sugar water ( Fill a shot glass with water, add sugar until=20 it won't dissolve any more. Let sit overnight.) =20 Add a little bole for color, if you want. Since I tried real gold, I decided to never go back to imitation. The gesso I use is acrylic gesso sottile from the Gabriel Guild. It works wonderfully with real gold, but I haven't tried it with=20 imitation. They can be reached at (914) 935-9362, or 6N. Pearl St. Ste.404E Port Chester, NY 10573.=20 Both burnished well for me. One thing I did notice, was that if I=20 didn't get the gesso raised enough, it was harder for the gold to stick. As long as it was fairly humpy, it stuck great. Good Luck! Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:11:25 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy/chiara Subject: [scribes]: Black Hours Greetings, greetings fellow scroll-gazers! Years ago, I did a scroll for a friend with a Greek persona, based on the purple-dyed manuscript pages. I used watercolor paper and dyed it red ( his colors are red and gold ) since a lot of purples from that period looked red. Not knowing how the lettering was done, here's what I did: I used my gold size that comes in the imitation gold kit (Old World Art or something like that) and put it in a Brause nib. I then calligraphed with the size, let it tack up, and covered it with the fake gold leaf. I burnished it with glassine, and brushed/scraped away the excess gold. I wasted a lot of leaf, but I didn't care since it was cheap leaf. If I do say so myself, it looked pretty good. I know that they never did it this way, but it was quick, easy, and the effect was really nice, especially from a distance. Just a thought. Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:11:29 -0500 (CDT) From: daffy/chiara Subject: [scribes]: scribal soapbox Well, maybe a soapDISH... I've been thinking about the lack of appreciation that there seems to be, and I've come up with an idea. With every scroll a scribe completes, fill out a "scroll report". Some info included could be: Artist's name, contact info, materials used, sources of inspiration, calligraphy style, care and feeding instructions, and number of hours spent on it's creation. Also, this would be a good place to have a printed version of the wording (even the most legible script can sometimes cause problems for the heralds) Any other info that seems applicable could also be included. Normally, if any of this info IS included with the scroll, it's put on the back, never to be seen again once the scroll is framed. Maybe this could be a standardized form that is included in each Kingdom's signet office standards book, and/or sent with each scroll assignment. The sheet could go home with the scroll,(possibly make a second copy for the signet office?) and at least the recipient would have some idea of what was involved in the scroll's construction. What does everyone think? (Be gentle with me:) Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:52:03 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: [scribes]: Caid Scribes list working This is just for the Caid scribes - I sent directions to my place to the "Caid Scribes" list earlier today but haven't seen it post back to me - did anyone get it? Tetchubah ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #84 ****************************