From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #83 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 083 In this issue: [scribes]: Re: [Mid] Scribal Soapbox (fwd) [scribes]: Scribal Soapbox-Reply [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA Re: [scribes]: Color repro in facsimiles Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. Re: [scribes]: Lindesfarne Colors Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox(long) Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA Re: [scribes]: Black Hours...Addendum Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. [scribes]: Award vs, scroll [scribes]: Re: Sribes appreciation day [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) Re: [scribes]: Award vs, scroll [scribes]: Gilding ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:27:18 -0500 From: Jennifer Rosen Subject: [scribes]: Re: [Mid] Scribal Soapbox (fwd) At 10:07 AM 6/15/98 -0400, Norma J Storms wrote: >I've been asked to post this for a friend, who can't do so from work. >Read on... >I think that the best thing to do is have a few already painted and partly >calliged scrolls in a couple styles is the best way to handle the last >minute freakies. Leave room for someone's arms, or an appropriate drollery, >and you're good to go. I have a Celtic, the beginnings of a Gothic, and I'm I, too, have done last-minute scrolls -- having learned to scribe in the Middle Knigdom, I thought that was what scribing was! ;) However, when I look at my own work habits, I have realized that I do not tend to scribe consistently, unlike my other activities (singing, sewing), which I do regularly, or always have a project to work on. I tend to work like crazy when I get a short-term scroll assignment, then spend the intervening weeks, months, whatever, _not_ scribing, to rest and recover. Recently, I have been working on 3 scrolls requested by my Laurel, and have found how wonderful it is to spend lots of time investigating styles, doing layout, and experimenting with materials. Also, what a difference it makes to work when you're fresh instead of exhausted! I think blanks are great, but my plan for myself is to make blanks for my _own_ use. If I work on illumination regularly, and keep my calligraphy skills up to snuff, then I will improve my skills (regular practice does wonders!) and also be able to answer last-minute scroll requests with much less panic. Of course, this doesn't work if you want to do a custom scroll for a friend who's getting an award, but my experience is that if you know the person, they'd much rather get a promissory from you and give you time to do your best work for them. >Look for the half hour, the hour. Use it wisely. Do something you love. >Katarina Peregrine Working on it when it's fun makes all the difference, and combats scribal burnout. I'm going to create regular habits for myself (I'm going to work every Tuesday or Sunday for 4-5 hours), and hopefully avoid the 40 hour scroll-weeks before events. Yours in service, Gianetta ________________ Lady Gianetta Andreini da Vicenza Jen Rosen jrosen@zwell.com Per fess gules and azure fretty, in chief in fess three popinjays Or "Oblectatio praesens non satis celeris est." (Instant gratification is just not fast enough.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:45:22 -0400 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: [scribes]: Scribal Soapbox-Reply I love the last min rush. Don't get me wrong. Having lots of lead time is great but I am driven by challenges. Deadlines, new hands, or styles all add to what makes doing a scroll fun. I have many activeities in the SCA that require lots of lead time from me, like cooking RP feasts, making special garb for an event or being War Herald at Pennsic (10 months lead time needed here). So when it comes to doing scrolls I am shameless at hording the time no mater if it is a day or a week. (To tell the truth, I use it as an excuse to get out of doing laundry and other tasks that can be put off). The last three scrolls I did were backlog scrolls with plenty of time to make them just right. So the last min. scrolls every so often spice things up. Michel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:56:45 +0100 (BST) From: Barbara Webb Subject: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA Just another point inspied by some of the replies: If we are going to limit the number of scrolls by not giving one for every award (or giving pre-prints or promissories or very simple scrolls) then I would vote that the one award that _does_ get a fancy original scroll _is_ the AoA. Yes I know is the most common and most 'basic' award but bear with me for a moment: * An AoA is a particularly appropriate scroll to decorate because it should include the arms of the recipient (although I would not insist arms were passed to get the scroll - that way lies back-log, and not everyone wants to register arms). Historically, these are the right documents to be more decorated. * Most people who are around for a while get it (I know there are exceptions) so most people get a nice scroll sometime. * People getting other awards usually either have an AoA already (in which case they will already have a spiffy scroll) or get it by default with the award (in which case they can be given a spiffy scroll). * You don't need a scroll to demonstrate that people appreciate you when being made a peer, but a nice scroll will make the AoA recipient think 'hey, someone actually went to this trouble just for me'. * Many other awards come with some kind of token, so the royalty have something to hand over already. If you are being given the insignia of the order then why do you need a scroll too? * There's probably about the right amount of scribal power available to deal with AoA's if they weren't rushed off their feet doing all the others... As before, none of these suggestions are intended to say you can't do other scrolls or fancier scrolls if you have the inclination (someone complained that they liked illumination: well there is no reason you'd have to stop - do illumination for all the people who ask you for it, I'm sure there would be plenty of takers!). What I would like to see changed is the expectation that _most_ awards should have a flashy book-of-hours scroll: because a) it is very hard to do - at least half the kingdoms don't manage and a lot of scribes burn out, and b) it devalues the art and effort of scribes by making it not at all special to have someone create an original work of art for you: to the extent that people complain about scrolls that may represent 20+ hours work, because it is not exactly what they wanted... Any thoughts? Caitlin de Courcy (who after ten years and six awards in the SCA has only ever received one scroll (this year!) for which I was very grateful...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:10:55 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Color repro in facsimiles >>So, to the question - are there other people who have seen some of the famous manuscipts and compared them to their well known facsimiles for color? Can you tell us which ones are good and which aren't?<< Unfortunately there's no easy answer to this question because it varies from facsimile to facsimile and from page to page. Just a few of my own observations based on the ones I've actually been able to compare with the originals: The stuff Braziller puts out tends to be fairly reasonable, including the cheaper $12.95 gold covered series. The really *big* copy of The Book of Kells put out by Knopf is also good (I hear - haven't seen the original myself) but I don't know about the smaller versions of which there are several - many of whose color palettes seem to differ drastically from the Knopf version. The best facsimiles I've come across aren't facsimiles at all - they're auction catalogs or catalogs put out by the rare manuscript dealers. Bruce Ferini in Ohio puts out catalogs that are exceptional in reproducing the original manuscripts - I've stood in his booth at the antiquarian book fair here for 3 hours comparing what he had in his display case with the catalog and there was almost no color variation. But as Ranthulfr says, there's a reason we pay so much money for these facsimiles - Ferini's catalogs cost up to $100 or so, with some thinner ones for less. But again, since these manuscripts or leaves are in private hands and going back into private hands, this may be your only opportunity to see them at all - another reason to keep an eye out for the book shows. There is also a french company whose name escapes me who put out a catalog called "Les Illuminaires" that was also very well done - again I was able to compare the catalog with the manuscripts themselves. And of course these catalogs frequently come with a price list to give you an idea of what these pieces go for. Flat out - spend your money and hope for the best. Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:20:11 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... Greetings all, I was not going to comment on this subject, but I feel the need all of a sudden. About metallic gouaches, I find W&N to be very pale and a hassle to use, but I have discovered Talens (from Belgium, I think, or the Netherlands) to be the smoothest, and easiest to work with...one coat is all that is needed for coverage. It is also the closest to shell gold I have yet seen. Try for the Light Gold. I have seen it sold through John Neal Bookseller. Also, Arianwen, you are slightly incorrect about gum arabic in tube gouaches, at least in W&N. W&N does NOT put enough in theirs. As a test, paint some onto a piece of scrap paper and let it dry...then try to erase over it. If straight from the tube, it will usually (there are some colors with exceptions) smear. If you add just a drop of gum arabic to the initial paint well when mixing and do the same thing, it will NOT smear. I learned this from a well-known mundane calligrapher (Reggie Ezzel) and have found that it does work. One other thing about W&N (and don't get me wrong here, I love these paints and use them all the time) is that they often put too much glycerin in their tubes (this is to keep them pliable). So be very careful when you squeeze out your paint into your paint wells. If it had this funny liquid with it (not mixed into the paint) then carefully pull it off with a cloth or kleenex. For paper, I highly recommend Arches Cover Black (but, spray it with Blair Calligraphy Fixative or your inks/paints will soak right in and get lost). I have recently purchased some lovely black dyed Kid vellum from Rick Cavasin (it is as supple as a piece of cloth! ) to hopefully one day do a Black Hours page (from the Painted Books of Hours). This will be a project just for me (if I ever get around to it!). Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Middle Kingdom (SCA sister to Master Baron Harold von Auerbach) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:28:14 EDT From: Aralyn67@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA In a message dated 98-06-16 12:11:20 EDT, bhw@psychology.nottingham.ac.uk writes: > and b) it devalues > the art and effort of scribes by making it not at all special to have > someone create an original work of art for you: to the extent that people > complain about scrolls that may represent 20+ hours work, because > it is not exactly what they wanted... > This is another issue that we should be dealing with altogeather. I'm very tired of being asked to redo scrolls for people who got a "bad scroll". Someone put forth their best effort and many hours to create that "bad scroll" and sometimes I think people's standards have become so inflated they fail to see this. As a local guildminister I try to use beginner scrolls on a local level or as prommisories, while their makers get more practice, but believe that ANY scroll should be appreciated. Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:32:50 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA > Just another point inspied by some of the replies: > > If we are going to limit the number of scrolls by not giving one for every > award (or giving pre-prints or promissories or very simple scrolls) then I > would vote that the one award that _does_ get a fancy original scroll _is_ > the AoA. Yes I know is the most common and most 'basic' award but bear > with me for a moment: (snip) Absolutely! I agree! Well said! > > > As before, none of these suggestions are intended to say you can't do > other scrolls or fancier scrolls if you have the inclination (someone > complained that they liked illumination: well there is no reason > you'd have to stop - do illumination for all the people who ask you for > it, I'm sure there would be plenty of takers!). What I would like to see > changed is the expectation that _most_ awards should have a flashy > book-of-hours scroll: because a) it is very hard to do - at least half the > kingdoms don't manage and a lot of scribes burn out, and b) it devalues > the art and effort of scribes by making it not at all special to have > someone create an original work of art for you: to the extent that people > complain about scrolls that may represent 20+ hours work, because > it is not exactly what they wanted... > > Any thoughts? > > Caitlin de Courcy > Not every scroll I do is a 'book-of-hours' style, but it's true that I certainly wouldn't want to do those all the time. Sometimes I go for a document style and sometimes I try a book style. Variety is what makes scribing fun for me... Miri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:30:57 +0000 From: "Laurie Cavanaugh" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. Hullo all, Morgan Athenry here. Miri quotes Aidan quoting Miri: > > > Whereas I see some good points of courtesy made, I would make some > > > further points: > > > 1) If scribes are paid, this will lead to a higher level of work > > > expected. This will squeeze out the beginning scribes whose work may > > > not be regarded as worth the price. They will not get as much practice, > > > and may be discouraged. > > > > While I agree to a point, I would tend to put more beginning scribes to > > work on things such as preprints (doing the line drawings and > > calligraphy for the master copy), local Baronial or Shire awards, > > tourney scrolls, etc. > > Ah, but sooner or later they need practice at other levels of scroll, > and if your local group doesn't do much in the way of local scrolls and > awards, that doesn't leave much for beginners. Preprints? for > promissories, maybe, not for real scrolls-feh. This reminds me of The Great Preprint Battle in the West back in AS 23 or 24. In our hearts, I think that most scribes would agree that in an ideal world, every AoA recipient would get a non-rushed, carefully done original scroll. I don't think any of us look down on an AoA a being a dime-a-dozen or whatever, as many of us still remember being without one. However, when faced with an enormous backlog and too few scribes, some places have opted to give preprints _instead of giving nothing_. At the time I campaigned vociferously that the problem was not too much work, but too few scribes. We went on a recruitment drive, started workshops and scriptoria, gained a batch of great new scribes, and two years later the backlog still looked overwhelming. I was so annoyed about preprints that I didn't participate in the preprint creation, and I was surprised that they turned out as well as they did. While not as good as an original, they are still better than having a photocopied promissory in a frame on one's mantel. [side note that in the West at the time, and maybe still, any award below peerage was held in absolute secrecy until the royalty gave it out, and the idea of a roomful of scribes knowing about who was going to get an award would have sent people into apoplexy. (I'm not saying that's logical or right, but that's the way it was) Even court members didn't know who would be getting awards that day. Peerages were also a complete secret unless the recipient wanted to tell people. Thus the West had an automatic backlog. I got around this by quietly telling the Chief Scribe that should my good friend so-and-so ever be offered a peerage, that I would be willing to do their scroll for their elevation if given a couple months notice. This, with an oath of secrecy, enabled me to do a few scrolls in advance.] On the subject of thank-yous, I'd like to update you on the outcome of my previous dilemma - I mentioned a desperate lady asking for last-minute calligraphy, she had offered to pay me, and what should I do? Well, doing calligraphy on top of watercolor and acrylic paint turned out to be a major blobbing experience. I finally had to put lamp black gouache through my quill, stopping to clean it out every ten minutes, and painting in the serifs with my ubiquitous 000 brush. I didn't get all the serifs finished for Coronation, and the result turned out way below my own expectations, so I wasn't going to ask her for anything. The acting Scribe Armarius wanted to present them in court even though one of them wasn't quite done yet and had the wrong date (arrgh!), so she sealed them, Ivan signed them, and they were presented anyway. I did get them back afterward so I can finish them. Anyway, a few hours later, both the illuminator and the recipient presented me with thank-you gifts that I felt were way above and beyond what I deserved. A lovely brooch, a strand of garnets, a silver knotwork necklace, and a wad of cash at the bottom of the pouch. I was absolutely speechless. I'm glad I don't wear mascara. By the way, the illuminator was Duchess Niobe of Bellatrix, who has just moved to Atlantia (Virginia somewhere). She is new to illumination, but much better than she thinks she is, and I would be very grateful if some Atlantian scribes could take her under their wings and encourage her. Morgan Athenry, OL Dreiburgen, Caid Laurie Cavanaugh Young Minds, Inc cavanaug@ymi.com Splendor is worth the effort. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:33:47 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Lindesfarne Colors In a message dated 98-06-16 03:29:25 EDT, randyaf@provide.net writes: << Verdigris, on the other hand is totally different from malachite in hue and saturation, but it varies way more than a lable could ever cover. There were lots of forms of verdigris. Some brassy, others dull. Some dark and rich. Others pasty or blued. >> This is partially based on how it was made and materials used.......some manufacturers actually use brass rather than copper because it's less expensive.....but you can get a veridigris-ish color from it. concerning the Pastel pallette that Thomas is using....it isn't really when you think about two things 1) the saturation of colour in the base Colours Thomas is using make it hard to go to pastel from there the ratio would probably be closer to 12:1 for white to colour..and 2) time and its effects on documents which were not treated the way we do in museums now......these documents were used and exposed to the elements. I also agree that conditions under which these documents were photographed lend alot to what we see....now the information contained in Eowyns "wonderbook" where the spectral analysis is discussed is great if one understands the nature of colour. Obviously it is going to go way over most beginners' heads-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:33:49 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox(long) In a message dated 98-06-16 05:45:47 EDT, bhw@psychology.nottingham.ac.uk writes: << I think this is really an important point. A scroll _should_ be considered a _document_ not a _gift_. If they are gifts, then other artisans should be expected to provide as much free labour as scribes (and I'm sure many people would be happier to recieve a piece of costume or armour than a scroll). The only justification for the current "imbalance" is that the _award_ is the gift and the scroll is the record of it. >> It may be a Kingdom anthropology thing, but I don't necessarily agree with this point of view, probably because the Kingdom I reside in gives pre-printed promissories..... the promissory is then the physical manifestation of the recognition of the Crown.... the "real scroll" is a gift when you look at the time involved, materials, and the creative force which goes into producing the scroll.....there are far more costumers, armourers and even cooks that can do their art than there are scribes, who quite frankly can dabble in the afforementioned arts and keep themselves clothed protected and fed. I think the real key here is education.....In Caid, we scribes are trying something new for us...we had a meeting at Queen's Champion where we took a look at the kingdom calendar and selected dates that we scribes will borrow a baronial pavillion (not the Barony Hosting the event) and set up a scriptorium, the purpose being two fold: 1) to let the populace (and mundanes) see what we labor over for hundreds of hours in our homes, thereby(hopefully) generating some understanding of what we do. 2) recruit more scribes......in the begining, we will be handpainting the xeroxed promissories and hopefully, some folks will come up and say "hey that looks like fun, can I try?" Once we have them there, then we'll pull the "Scribal-Borg" thing.....AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH oops sorry (now I see how those evil overlords always mess up by telling the hero their fiendish plot...)-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:33:53 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... In a message dated 98-06-16 08:40:17 EDT, Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com writes: << I have some Winsor and Newton imitation gold gouche in a tube (I also have access to the one in the jar, if this will help. I haven't tried the jar one yet though.)>> Personally I prefer the jar gouache YMMV the drawback to it is that it is expensive and the toulene (the suspension medium) evaporates before I can get through an entire jar.......you might want to seal either the gouache or the liquid though as it does oxidize. <<1) Which have you found better, the gold or silver imitation is best for this?>> I prefer the gold because it oxidizes more slowly, the silver will start to oxidize very quickly (days) << 2) I do my calligrapphy on a slant. The pigment was falling to the bottom of the letters. How do I avoid this? Was it too thin? Would gum aarabic help? Will I have to do the calligraphy flat to make this work?>> By all means add gum arabic and still work on a slant, maybe not as steep and it may be too thin the gum arabic will help. << 3) What *does* gum arabic do? Thanks, Avelina Keyes>> gum arabic is a resin (sap-sticky stuff) from a type of acacia tree it is used as a binder, to hold your pigments to a ground (in this case paper or vellum). It is the binder used in gouache....acriylic being the binder in acrylics.....egg (either yolk or glair) is the binder in tempera-Hope this helps -JimBear http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:33:51 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox In a message dated 98-06-16 08:32:23 EDT, Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com writes: << I think that I have a very *cool* AoA scroll. It is done in the style of a *real* grant of arms. It has a large opening initial with a picture (miniature?) of our Principle Herald (a wicked good friend of mine) and a depiction of my arms complete with motto and mantling. There is a minimum of illumination and, ya know what? I think it is pretty cool. So I support the concept, I supported it even before I became a scribe. Yours, Avelina Keyes Du Pont Pursuivant http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 >> We have restrictions on what can be depicted on armigerius scrolls based on rank: AoA may not have manteling, supporters, crests, or even helms. They may have a four pointed crown (of which you can see three points).Court Baronacy gets the same as an AoA except the coronet is silver and has six disks (you see 4). Grants may have a black or steel gray helm with gold chasing and manteling, or a very strange looking coronet with curved points and balls on the top of the points and a depiction of the grant level award(if applicable) and a crest. Laurels, Knights and Pelicans may have a silver or white helm with gold chasing, Laurel wreath, Chain, and Cap of Maintainence respectively, manteling, crests and supporters. Royal Peers get a yellow helm with gold chasing, a commital coronet, a wreath of gold roses (for the Royal consort) manteling, supporters, and crests. Dukes have the privilege of having their personal helms depicted. So for anything below a Grant the depiction gets mighty scarce for a period document-JimBear ( who will be starting a Peerage document style this weekend) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:44:48 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: scribal soapbox: AoA I'm afraid if I heard someone complain, I'd go off on my 'guess how much money went from the scribe's personal pocket (not to mention time, imagination, energy, etc.) into this scroll?' rant. Anyone saying that in my presence should consider themselves lucky not to be slapped. If I find the gentle in question is simply ignorant of how things work, then I'll forgive them their gaff and educate them on the subject. If they're just whining because they wanted gold leaf, I shall have to ask friends to restrain me from slapping such a twit. Miri > > and b) it devalues > > the art and effort of scribes by making it not at all special to have > > someone create an original work of art for you: to the extent that people > > complain about scrolls that may represent 20+ hours work, because > > it is not exactly what they wanted... > > > > This is another issue that we should be dealing with altogeather. I'm very > tired of being asked to redo scrolls for people who got a "bad scroll". > Someone put forth their best effort and many hours to create that "bad scroll" > and sometimes I think people's standards have become so inflated they fail to > see this. As a local guildminister I try to use beginner scrolls on a local > level or as prommisories, while their makers get more practice, but believe > that ANY scroll should be appreciated. > > Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:51:59 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black Hours...Addendum In a message dated 98-06-16 10:25:12 EDT, Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com writes: << When I was playing with the C2, it seemed to clog much less. Is this a function of the pigment and nib, or was it a function of my inexperience? >> I t could depend on alot of different things, paper type, comfort with the process (death grip pressing too hard etc.) pigment, humidty-hope that muddied the water :) JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:54:49 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. > Hullo all, Morgan Athenry here. > (snip) If you took the higher level scrolls off the backlog, are the majority really AoAs, or would that make AoAs manageable? > (snip) > them. Anyway, a few hours later, both the illuminator and the > recipient presented me with thank-you gifts that I felt were way > above and beyond what I deserved. A lovely brooch, a strand of > garnets, a silver knotwork necklace, and a wad of cash at the bottom > of the pouch. I was absolutely speechless. I'm glad I don't wear > mascara. I am all astonishment. WOW. I am mightily impressed by their generosity. The one thank-you I've received was a $20 check in the mail toward materials, and I was most grateful. Other than that, folks express their gratitude when I ask them what their preferences for design and elements are. And that makes all the difference. My, such largesse. I am truly amazed. I shouldn't be able to accept such a gesture....my scrolls aren't up to that...but I am proud to know that there are those whose talents merit such and those who recognize it. WOW. > > By the way, the illuminator was Duchess Niobe of Bellatrix, who has > just moved to Atlantia (Virginia somewhere). She is new to > illumination, but much better than she thinks she is, and I would be > very grateful if some Atlantian scribes could take her under their > wings and encourage her. > > Morgan Athenry, OL > Dreiburgen, Caid Should I meet her, I shall be glad to do so! :) Miri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:10:23 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. In a message dated 98-06-16 12:37:27 EDT, cavanaug@ymi.com writes: << By the way, the illuminator was Duchess Niobe of Bellatrix, who has just moved to Atlantia (Virginia somewhere). She is new to illumination, but much better than she thinks she is, and I would be very grateful if some Atlantian scribes could take her under their wings and encourage her. Morgan Athenry, OL Dreiburgen, Caid >> Hear Hear! The scrolls were Her Grace's second and third attempt at Illumination. Both the Illumination AND calligraphy were/are wonderful (so there Morgan HAH!) Please do take Niobe under your wing, I adore her (and Morgan too! but she's here so I get to adore her at close range) she is a wonderful scribe, mom, bard, etc.-JimBear BTW if my typing is off please forgive as I got my last set of shots in my spine yesterday and it has me waaay off ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:24:11 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Award vs, scroll Over the years I have seen the supposed minimum amount of decoration required on a scroll shift. I think I might have put a Middle Kingdom expectation level in print in our scribe handbook as being at least a decorated initial and minimal border. I don't remember, and it may not have made it into the final draft, but that's theoretically what we wanted to go with a hand calligraphed scroll back then. Reality steps in though and you have: Sometimes Signets give preferential assignments based on product level so friends get really nice art, or because it is a high level award. When it is known that a scribe does really great stuff, they become in demand. Scribes by their nature tend to push themselves into something newer and harder because they want to learn. Also they know that the likelyhood of their effort going onto the wall rather than the shoebox in the closet is greater if they do a more complex piece. And then there is the matter of a scribe hoping that someday, if their work is good enough" they may be recognized with something prestigeous (which may include a really nice piece of art from some OTHER heavily overworked and exploited artist). Well, why get bent about it? Nobody is forcing anybody. Pressure which does come is more often a product of appreciation of one's skill. WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES for the reasons listed above. We do get something out of it. We get better at what we do. Any one of us can do a scroll with a minimum amount of work. Sometimes we do. Sometimes we go nuts on the ULTIMATE scroll so far! So is it right or wrong to be treated as we are? I think that anyone who gives a gift (and I do feel that ANY donation is a gift) under the terms we do is giving without asking. Under those circumstances I think we are hypocritcal to then demand compensation and praise after the fact and against those terms. You wouldn't give a birthday present and then require compensation and praise. *BUT* You sure would expect some words of thanks! Where it falls apart is that we can feel pretty unappreciated when nobody pats us on the back or lets us know they are happy to receiveour work (as well as the award status). It is just common politeness to thank someone who puts themself out for you. To me, that is the rub. Too few people seem to forget that these simple manners can really be an encouragement to a scribe. They can really make the difference. On another note, I have not received all of the scrolls which went with my variuos awards, but I remember a promissary which I treasure very much. It was 90% calligraphy with some filligree by Master Geoffrey de La Mare. I wouldn't even consider replacing it. The calligraphy is a wonderful piece of art on its own. Ranthulfr Asparlundr OL, KSCA Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:25:03 -0400 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: [scribes]: Re: Sribes appreciation day Seriously I have had the pleasure of recipients sending me thank you notes or small gifts. But the very best came from HRM Luna. She took the time at the end of her reign to send thank you notes to each scribe in the kingdom and personalized each one. I thought that was a very generous thing for her to do. Michel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:53:11 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: My turn on the scribal soapbox >In a message dated 98-06-16 12:11:20 EDT, bhw@psychology.nottingham.ac.uk >writes: > >> and b) it devalues >> the art and effort of scribes by making it not at all special to have >> someone create an original work of art for you: to the extent that people >> complain about scrolls that may represent 20+ hours work, because >> it is not exactly what they wanted... >> > >This is another issue that we should be dealing with altogeather. I'm very >tired of being asked to redo scrolls for people who got a "bad scroll". >Someone put forth their best effort and many hours to create that "bad scroll" >and sometimes I think people's standards have become so inflated they fail to >see this. As a local guildminister I try to use beginner scrolls on a local >level or as prommisories, while their makers get more practice, but believe >that ANY scroll should be appreciated. > > >Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir (NOTE: UPPER CASE USED TO DISTINGUISH FROM PREVIOUS COMMENTS, NOT AS EMPHASIS) MY 2 DUCATS WORTH: YOU BET! THIS KIND OF THING REALLY IS A SELFISH ATTITUDE WHEN THE PERSON EXPECTS THE SCRIBES TO DO A REPLACEMENT SCROLL AS IF THEY DESERVED BETTER THE FIRST TIME AROUND. OF COURSE ANYONE WHO RECEIVES A PROMISSORY IS NOT IN THIS CATEGORY. THE PEOPLE WHO OFFEND ARE THE ONES WHO EITHER ARE TELLING THE KINGDOM WHAT TYPE OF GIFT THEY DEMAND, OR ARE THE ONES WHO HAD THEIRS GET DESTROYED BY ACCIDENT AND WANT A REPLACEMENT FOR FREE. I BELIEVE THAT EVEN WHEN LOSS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN "THEIR" FAULT, NEITHER IS IT THE FAULT OF THE SCRIBE. IN BOTH OF THESE CASES IT IS ONLY PROPER THAT THEY COMMISSION A SCRIBE TO REPLACE A SCROLL FOR A COMPENSATION OF EITHER TRADE OR CASH. WHAT REALLY GETS ME ARE PEERS AND OTHER MUCK-MUCKS WHO WANT TO TRADE UP BECAUSE THEY THINK THEIR STATUS REQUIRES A BETTER PIECE OF ART. THAT IS TOTALLY DISRESPECTFUL OF THE ORIGINAL ARTIST, AND WORSE RESPECT FOR THE ARTIST THEY ARE TRYING TO GET TO DO IT FOR FREE. SADLY, THIS IDEA DOESN'T EVEN OCCUR TO A LOT OF PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY THINK OF THE "KINGDOM" AS THE FOUNT OF SCROLLS. I WOULD SOMEDAY LOVE TO GET AN ORIGINAL LAUREL SCROLL, AND AN ORIGINAL KNIGHTING SCROLL. ARTISTS HAVE VOLUNTEERED TO DO A COUPLE OF SCROLLS WHICH I NEVER RECEIVED. I AM WILLING TO WAIT BECAUSE I ALSO WANT REALLY NICE WORK FOR WHAT THEY GIVE ME. BUT THIS IS FIRST TIME AROUND STUFF. IF I WANTED TO HAVE A BETTER AOA SCROLL I WOULD PAY FOR IT. BUT I DON'T WANT A BETTER ONE. SOMEBODY TOOK A LOT OF TIME AND DID THEIR BEST ON THE ONE I'VE GOT, AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY COUNTS. RANTHULFR Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:00:55 -0700 From: Aralyn67@aol.com (forwarded by postmaster@castle.org) Subject: [scribes]: [assist.] with Gilding (fwd) Hello all, I have a County scroll on which I am working which is VERY late and I'm getting desparate. I cannot get the gilding right. I have to date been working with only the imitation gold leaf and commercial size, or gold ink or gauche, but really want to learn to do the real thing. Especially for this scroll as it is for a friend. I just can't seem to get the hang of it. I've tried gum arabic and honey, gum ammoniac, gum ammoniac and Armenian bole, rabbit skin glue and Armenian bole, and even the commercial size, with and without bole (this gave the best initial adhesion but couldn't be burnished). Generally it just doesn't seem to stick. If the gold adheres at all its patchy. Mistress Cori Ghora and I spent an entire evening last week trying various mixtures and had only limited success on any of them. So any advice would be greatly appreciated. Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:09:41 -0700 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Award vs, scroll >> On another note, I have not received all of the scrolls which went with my variuos awards, << This is kind of like the cobbler's children going barefoot isn't it? I solved that problem a long time ago - if there's no one around to do my scroll I do it myself. That way I actually get to keep some of my own work rather than giving it away. I did my own AoA many years ago and I think I made Eowyn (who was Scribe Armarius at the time) feel so guilty that she did my Harp when I got that. I recently told Master Bruce, our current SA, that I want to do my own Crescent scroll (there's method to my madness - I want to try out that great vellum I got from Rick a while back). But I already have scrolls from Elyramere and Zenobia in addition to Eowyn, and JimBear has agreed to do my Pelican. Yeah, the great thing about being a scribe is you can always get a friend (another scribe) to do your award scrolls. BTW, JimBear, I like that "Scribal-Borg" thing. "We are Scribe - you will be assimilated." Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:10:45 -0500 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: Gilding I have had very good luck using Acrylic gloss medium gel. This is a medium used to mix with acrylic paints to make them shiney. It is not period, but provides excellent adhesion when you are in a hurry. (It should be available at any art/craft stores that sell acrylic paint.) Humidity and temperature do not seem to cause problems when using this ground. I mix in a little bole (or some other red coloring) and use plenty of water. The medium tends to be a little 'stringy' or sticky (like egg yolk) so you want to thin it to the point where you can apply it smoothly. You can apply 2 or 3 thin coats to make sure you have sufficient coverage. This stuff dries quickly, and stays tacky long after it has dried. I usually let it dry about 30 minutes. Lay the gold and burnish through glassine first, then you can burnish directly on the gold after it has adhered. You can press fairly heavily on this acrylic ground. The burnish is equivalent to what can be achieved on gum ammoniac, but not as brilliant a mirror finish as you can get with gesso. I have found this ground to work extremely well in tiny areas and when I have problems getting the edges to stick. I have used this with 23K & 24K loose leaf and patent leaf without problems. I usually use 2 (or 3) layers of gold leaf to make sure none of the ground is showing through. Ellen of the Scholars cebaker@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu At 11:00 AM 6/16/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello all, > > I have a County scroll on which I am working which is VERY late and I'm >getting desparate. I cannot get the gilding right. I have to date been >working with only the imitation gold leaf and commercial size, or gold ink or >gauche, but really want to learn to do the real thing. Especially for this >scroll as it is for a friend. I just can't seem to get the hang of it. I've >tried gum arabic and honey, gum ammoniac, gum ammoniac and Armenian bole, >rabbit skin glue and Armenian bole, and even the commercial size, with and >without bole (this gave the best initial adhesion but couldn't be burnished). >Generally it just doesn't seem to stick. If the gold adheres at all its >patchy. Mistress Cori Ghora and I spent an entire evening last week trying >various mixtures and had only limited success on any of them. So any advice >would be greatly appreciated. > >Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir > > > > > ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #83 ****************************