From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #82 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 082 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Lindesfarne Colors [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox [scribes]: Color repro in facsimiles RE: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox [scribes]: Black Hours... [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... RE: [scribes]: Black Hours...Addendum RE: [scribes]: Nibs Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:28:52 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: Re: [scribes]: Lindesfarne Colors >Hi there. Just a thought, and I apologize if this was already addressed >(been skimming too many messages....) regarding the WN color palette for >the Lindesfarne scroll. It seems that you (Thomas) are using a lot of >pastel colors for your scroll, based on the white and then adding the >color (good mixing technique, thats not my question.) My question >is...how is one able to tell from the reproduction/photos whether the >original colors were pastel or regular? I mean, what effect would that >many centuries have on the original color? This has bugged me for a >while on my own work--having the nifty big version of Kells with all the >cool closeups, etc. > >In other words, I look at the reproduction, look at my research >(ie-well, the would have had this color then, blah blah blah, and when I >mix it from the same stuff now it looks like ) and then wonder >what would happen if I left it laying around the house (or the monastery >or the museum...) for 1000 years or so. All you pigment experts out >there, is there a reading on this?? > >Mind you, I am NOT NOT NOT saying Thomas is wrong to do it more >pastel-ly .... a theoretical philosophical scientific question only. > >Thanks. > >Ms. Aidan >(waah-hh, missing my pals at Lilies...whine!!!) I have done a fair amount of pigment research. There are some colors which are very stable in hue and lightfastness, while others are really, really fugative. Some of the colors which do not change with exposure to light however, may change with exposure to other colors. For example, in a book, both orpiment and minium are pretty safe from a light attack, but both can have problems left out in atmospheres which have modern chemicals carried in them. Also, they will make a graphite-like grey when accidentally painted adjacently. Otherwise, they may be exactly as they were painted way back when. The upshot is that each color has a different vulnerability. You will not know what a particular viewed hue really is until you identify the actual pigment used. This can be done with microphotography. There is a curator at the Chicago Institute of Arts or is that Arts Institute?) who has wonderful photos of the individual chemicals which make the pigments and uses them to make identifications. However, there is a way to make an educated guess. It is not easy, but I suggest you collect a bunch of medieval pigments and make paint chips of their different tints and shades. I have several that I collected over the years, and the experience has allowed me to feel very certain of pigment identification, within reason. Obviously, the blacks are similar, but by making them I have discovered that the expected warms can be cool and the cools can be warm depending on manufacture technique. Woad and indigo are tough to distinguish visually (I sure can't do it) but when mixed with white they are also similar to bad grade Azurite which is fine ground for flourishing or fields. (In fact, fine azurite, which is pale, looks a lot like tinted ultramarine. Both can also be found as lower grade colors and are essentially indistinguishable that way to me.) So, even if you collect and make a pallette of colors to compare, you can't be sure that your pigment "x" looks like a specific MS's pigment "X", but it is a good place to start. I find that calling colors by modern names like "mistletoe green" is a really distracting and confusing method. Everybody has their own names. I was asked by a PELIKAN rep to consult on their new line of water soluble oil paints and I told them about the same thing. If you want to sell to serious artists, they need to know what pigment they are getting. Drop the fancy fluff names and call them by the pigments used. However, in medieval MS pigment identification we seldom get access to test what the pigments really are. So the next best thing is to use the following: There are color wheel coordinates. There is a thing called the Munsel Diagram (Biney & Smith used to produce a chart to give out.) You figure out what hue range you are looking at. Is it a warm blue or a cool blue? Is it very saturated or dull. Is it tinted (white is added) or is it shaded (black is added). Tint and shade are actual technical terms in color theory. Black and white make an added grey or are said to neutralize color. They each make a color less saturate and less of that particular color's charactor. One of the cool things about malachite is that when finely ground it is like a very saturated green with white in it. Even light, it seems to retain a lot of greenness". For this reason it is very easy to identify in manuscripts. When you see it, you recognize it and know it is unchanged from the day it was painted. Verdigris, on the other hand is totally different from malachite in hue and saturation, but it varies way more than a lable could ever cover. There were lots of forms of verdigris. Some brassy, others dull. Some dark and rich. Others pasty or blued. They also mixed yellows of various types into verdigris. Verdigris is not nearly so easy to identify absolutely, unless it has eaten the page or chemically changed an adjacent color, etc. But it can be more opaque than some dyed greens. It is a color which can change in hue to a deep brown when exposed to the right atmospheres. This has been a big problem for professional art historians. But just because a color started as a plant dye doesn't mean it will be translucent. Some colors were stained onto alum or chalk and took on opacity. Some stayed thin. Sometimes this meant a more "tinted" appearance, but with other colors there could be a more saturated appearance as the underlaying white actually brightened the reflectivity of light through the pigment structure. The bottom line: You have to know what the real colors look like before you try to guess what you are seeing on a page in your presence. Then you will identify some for sure and have a short list of possibles for the rest. You can further narrow the probables by researching likely sources. For example, you have trouble identifying the difference between indigo and woad. The color you see is a semi warm but "shaded" blue of medium-low saturation, so you are reasonably comfortable suspecting one of those two. So if it is an early period Northumbrian MS, odds are it was woad. Woad was a lot easier to get, and being the same hue, why bother importing indigo? Just an educated guess which can be researched in a more scholarly way later. Now the big problem with books is that they can be photographed under variable lighting colors and brightnesses, and the inks used to print them in books can mislead, and the process of getting an image from capture to output is full of ways to shift the color. Why do GOOD facsimilies cost so much? The really good ones actually take more care in controling this process. The typical facsimile we buy for under $100 is expensive because it has a lot of photos and sells fewer copies, and not so much for color accuracy. Those are suspect, but not too bad. Sometimes you luck out and get a reasonable color reproduction in a relatively cheap book, and you can actually identify "possible" pigments. I know I can look at Backhouse's Lindisfarne Gospells and tell you exactly which are the miniums, which are orpiment, which are malachite, which are woad, etc., but I have no idea what the "cool translucent red & red/purple" colors are. Even if I had samples, there are too many sources which look too close to identify. Just do the best you can with what you have. There is no good, easy, cheap, or quick answer for you. Ranthulfr Asparlundr Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:32:36 +0100 (BST) From: Barbara Webb Subject: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox I have some sympathy with the original message (some of you may have seen me discuss this before). Effectively I am some-one who just says "no": mostly for lack of time (mundane work and other interests), but also following several experiences along the lines of rushing to complete a royalty-requested scroll only to discover they gave the award at an event a week earlier (so the dates and details on the scroll were now wrong too). Now I mostly do backlog/replacement scrolls by request. This does have the effect that I can take as long as I like and do complex and personally satisfying work. On the other hand I probably don't do nearly as much of it as I used to. A plus to the current scroll system is that it pushes you to do things that you might not otherwise get around to. A minus, for me, was having my work "disappear" - in a large Kingdom the chances of your scroll living locally can be small, and all too often you hear nothing - no thanks, no feedback to tell whether the recipient loves it or has just stuck it in a drawer. I mind this a bit less now I keep colour photocopies. Anyway all that pre-amble was because one point in the message struck me particularly: > > Lancelin once pointed out that the scroll isn't the > >"gift" after all (to which I took umbrage at the time, but I now see the > >point!) - and it wasn't in medieval times either. I think this is really an important point. A scroll _should_ be considered a _document_ not a _gift_. If they are gifts, then other artisans should be expected to provide as much free labour as scribes (and I'm sure many people would be happier to recieve a piece of costume or armour than a scroll). The only justification for the current "imbalance" is that the _award_ is the gift and the scroll is the record of it. I would really like to see this attitude spread by giving more scrolls that are in the form of legal documents (lots of writing and limited illumination) than the current "book of hours" style. Well-executed calligraphy can look as good as illumination on your wall; and it is not inappropriate for more "important" documents to have more decoration. You could have a reign with a number of designated scribes producing a consistent style for all the awards (and being appointed a scribe to the reign would be a public recognition, like the Queen's guard for fighters). And if people wanted something "more" than the document they can commission a scribe (for money, barter or simply friendship) to make an illuminated version. Having said all this my minor attempts to encourage it - by doing a purely calligraphed, period document style scroll (in German) for someone who had requested same - were somewhat dashed by the fact the scroll never reached the recipient, I am fairly sure because somewhere along the line (through signet, royalty and courier to another continent) some-one looked at it, saw no illumination, and assumed it wasn't actually meant to be _the_ scroll... But I would be interested in how many others support the concept! Caitlin de Courcy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:01:33 EDT From: Ariannawyn@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Color repro in facsimiles Thorfinn alluded to a common problem in his discussion of the Lindisfarne Gospel pigments: <> It's *very* useful to know this (thanks, Thorfinn!), because I have yet to figure out how to judge whether the color repro in a facsimile is accurate without comparing it to the original. Anybody have any suggestions? This problem was particularly brought home to me some years ago when I went to Toronto with the local scribe's guild to see the enormous and fabulous Hunter manuscript collection. It lives at the University of Glasgow (Scotland), if I recall, but was on tour to only 2 cities in North America at the time and I was lucky enough to live in nearby Buffalo, NY... anyway, after spending several hours drooling over a hundred or so plastic cases full of manuscripts, we picked up the companion facsimile book, "The Glory of the Page," in the museum store, only to be dismayed at how bloody awful the color repro was. One particular capital "M" with intricate and tiny white vinework was a lovely deep burgundy in the original, but the facsimile showed it as a muddy umber! So, to the question - are there other people who have seen some of the famous manuscipts and compared them to their well known facsimiles for color? Can you tell us which ones are good and which aren't? Sad to say, I saw the Book of Kells 18 years ago but didn't think to compare the colors to my facsimile, and of course now the memory is dim... Arianna of Wynthrope (Karen Kasper) Barony-Marche of the Debatable Lands (Pittsburgh, PA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:22:01 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox Greetings! Caitlin de Courcy asked: But I would be interested in how many others support the concept! __________________________________________________________________________= _____ I think that I have a very *cool* AoA scroll. It is done in the style of = a *real* grant of arms. It has a large opening initial with a picture = (miniature?) of our Principle Herald (a wicked good friend of mine) and a = depiction of my arms complete with motto and mantling. There is a = minimum of illumination and, ya know what? I think it is pretty cool. = So I support the concept, I supported it even before I became a scribe. Yours, Avelina Keyes Du Pont Pursuivant http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:36:33 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: [scribes]: Black Hours... Greetings, yet again! I want to play around with an AoA for someone whose favorite colors are = black gold, and white. I was thinking about a black page. Now for the questions: I think these have been asked recently, but, I didn't understand the = problem. Now I think I do. I can't get shell gold right now due to the cost. I have some Winsor and = Newton imitation gold gouche in a tube (I also have access to the one in = the jar, if this will help. I haven't tried the jar one yet though.) 1) Which have you found better, the gold or silver imitation is best for = this? 2) I do my calligrapphy on a slant. The pigment was falling to the = bottom of the letters. How do I avoid this? Was it too thin? Would gum = aarabic help? Will I have to do the calligraphy flat to make this work? 3) What *does* gum arabic do? Thanks, Avelina Keyes Du Pont Pursuivant http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:41:40 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: [scribes]: Re: Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. > > Whereas I see some good points of courtesy made, I would make some > > further points: > > 1) If scribes are paid, this will lead to a higher level of work > > expected. This will squeeze out the beginning scribes whose work may > > not be regarded as worth the price. They will not get as much practice, > > and may be discouraged. True, you don't expect armourers to give of > > their art so freely, but when money is paid for it, you expect a certain > > level of craftsmanship. > > While I agree to a point, I would tend to put more beginning scribes to > work on things such as preprints (doing the line drawings and > calligraphy for the master copy), local Baronial or Shire awards, > tourney scrolls, etc. Ah, but sooner or later they need practice at other levels of scroll, and if your local group doesn't do much in the way of local scrolls and awards, that doesn't leave much for beginners. Preprints? for promissories, maybe, not for real scrolls-feh. > > > 2)This will also create another problem- who will pay for the scrolls? > > The Kingdom? Funds will dry up and fewer awards will be given because > > the Kingdom will not be able to afford it. The recipient? Then scrolls > > will only be for the wealthy- how many of us as poor college students > > could have afforded an AoA scroll? > > Well, again I refer to preprints, which to my mind is a really logical > solution to the problem of multitudinous AoAs and similar level scrolls. That's all well and good if you get more than one scroll in your SCA life. What about the folks for whom that is the only scroll? I don't see it as a viable solution because I see it as a lack of courtesy. I see it as essentially saying, "Well, you've only got an AoA and they're as plentiful as weeds, so we'll give you a preprint, but when we hand out a Laurel or something we think deserves some original work then we'll bother to make something special." I think if there are Peers and Royal Peers without their AoA but who have many other original scrolls and wouldn't mind getting a preprint, that is one thing. If they so desire to take it upon themselves to decrease the backlog of their Kingdom in that sense, then I could see it. I'd prefer they encourage a beginner and show a bit of noblesse oblige, and there's another option- have a list of beginners in each local group and have your Clerk Signet give stacks of AoAs to these groups. It cuts down on backlog and gives practice to new folks. > I don't personally think it is unreasonable to give nice well done > preprints for this quantity of awards. ALSO, for upper level award > scrolls, I feel that the recipient (or their friends, if the award is a > surprise and they want a scroll given at the time of the award) could The problem here is that if one is looking for someone to do a scroll, one looks for an artisan who has a name, or one only finds those who are established. This doesn't encourage those who are learning to progress. The current system helps scribes learn and progress. The other thing is, it's very unlikely, at least in Atlantia, that you'll know if a friend is getting an award. Heck, I don't even know when people are going to be inducted into the Kingdom Order I'm in... > empty either their pockets or their BARTER SYSTEM. As one who does not > do a great many things in the SCA (for instance, I sew poorly, > leatherwork not at all, etc) I would rather trade stuff for scrolls than > get cash. I would gladly also do a scroll for trade for something my > husband wants (like that new helm, those nice new gauntlets, hint hint > hint...). There are a great many things that poor college students with > talent could do or make or help with or teach or whatever that are well > worth the "price" of a scroll. > > > (snip) > > Ms. Aidan Whereas I understand that point, I would contest it on the grounds that there might very well be college students without talents they could barter. Miri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:52:05 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Scribal Soapbox (snip) > I would really > like to see this attitude spread by giving more scrolls that are in the > form of legal documents (lots of writing and limited illumination) than > the current "book of hours" style. Well-executed calligraphy can look as > good as illumination on your wall; and it is not inappropriate for more > "important" documents to have more decoration. You could have a reign with > a number of designated scribes producing a consistent style for all the > awards (and being appointed a scribe to the reign would be a public > recognition, like the Queen's guard for fighters). In Atlantia, we have a contest for the Scrivener Royale, who writes out the promissories and last minute scrolls during a reign. It's not a question of appointment, but competition. And if people wanted > something "more" than the document they can commission a scribe (for > money, barter or simply friendship) to make an illuminated version. Honestly, I prefer to do the illuminated style...why? I enjoy designing them and I like the colours. There isn't much in the way of design fun if it's all calligraphy, and not something that creates a picture like Hebrew calligraphy does. > > Having said all this my minor attempts to encourage it - by doing a purely > calligraphed, period document style scroll (in German) for someone who had > requested same - were somewhat dashed by the fact the scroll never reached > the recipient, I am fairly sure because somewhere along the line (through > signet, royalty and courier to another continent) some-one looked at it, > saw no illumination, and assumed it wasn't actually meant to be _the_ > scroll... > > But I would be interested in how many others support the concept! > > Caitlin de Courcy I realize it's perfectly period, but I wouldn't want to do it all the time...I like more colour. Miri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:44:57 EDT From: EBHarbord@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... In a message dated 6/16/98 8:40:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com writes: Dear Lady Avelina, >>I can't get shell gold right now due to the cost. I have some Winsor and Newton imitation gold gouche in a tube (I also have access to the one in the jar, if this will help. I haven't tried the jar one yet though.)<< >> 1) Which have you found better, the gold or silver imitation is best for this?<< Personally, I have had more luck with the imitation gold and silver guache in the tube. The paint and ink that comes in the jar (specifically the gold), tends to turn to a bronze-y tone over time. >> 2) I do my calligrapphy on a slant. The pigment was falling to the bottom of the letters. How do I avoid this? Was it too thin? Would gum aarabic help? Will I have to do the calligraphy flat to make this work?<< In the past, I've always done both my calligraphy and illumination flat (a very big mistake for me physically.......bad posture, back aches, cramped wrist and tendinitus in my elbow). I wish I could say that working flat would help 100%, it may. But I wouldn't recommend doing all the time. Yes, adding a few drops of gum arabic should help to keep things from "running". >> 3) What *does* gum arabic do?<< Gum arabic helps as a binder to thicken up the paint/ink, giving the medium a more opaque quality to it. Thanks, Avelina Keyes >> I hope this helps. Sincerly, Arrienna McPhearson East Kingdom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:15:00 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: RE: [scribes]: Black Hours...Addendum Hi y'all! In addition to the 3 questions I psoited earlier, there is this one... 4) For those of you that have tried this before, what was your favorite = commercially available nib? I started with a Speedball (yup, I know what = you all are going to say, Lose it) C5. It seemed like the nib was too = fine. When I was playing with the C2, it seemed to clog much less. Is = this a function of the pigment and nib, or was it a function of my = inexperience? Thanks again, Avelina Du Pont __________________________________________________________________________= _____ From: Knott Deanna on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 08:52 Subject: [scribes]: Black Hours... To: scribes@castle.org Greetings, yet again! I want to play around with an AoA for someone whose favorite colors are bl= ack gold, and white. I was thinking about a black page. Now for the questions: I think these have been asked recently, but, I didn't understand the = problem. Now I think I do. I can't get shell gold right now due to the cost. I have some Winsor and = Newton imitation gold gouche in a tube (I also have access to the one in = the jar, if this will help. I haven't tried the jar one yet though.) 1) Which have you found better, the gold or silver imitation is best for = this? 2) I do my calligrapphy on a slant. The pigment was falling to the = bottom of the letters. How do I avoid this? Was it too thin? Would gum = aarabic help? Will I have to do the calligraphy flat to make this work? 3) What *does* gum arabic do? Thanks, Avelina Keyes Du Pont Pursuivant http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 - ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com with SMTP;16 Jun 1998 08:51:44 -0400 Received: from cx39592-a.elcjn1.sdca.home.com ("port 2667"@cx39592-a.elcjn1.sdca.home.com) by Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #18654) id <01IYAKFPIMKS0005M8@Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com> for Knott.Deanna@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) id FAA17474 for scribes-list; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com = [129.46.52.129]) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA17470 for = ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moria.qualcomm.com (qualcomm.com [192.35.156.11]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.14) with ESMTP id FAA22660 = for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by moria.qualcomm.com id FAA12904 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com(131.131.251.1) via SMTP by moria.qualcomm.com, id smtpdAAA0X0SLo; Tue Jun 16 05:35:28 = 1998 Received: from mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com ("port 1170"@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) by Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #17886) id <01IYAQGCM1VO0019SJ@Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com> for scribes@castle.org; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:36:33 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: [scribes]: Black Hours... Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org To: scribes@castle.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-MS 3.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1"; Name=3D"Message Body" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: castle.org: majordomo set sender to owner-scribes@castle.org using -f ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:49:07 -0400 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: RE: [scribes]: Nibs Greetings from Michel Almond I just did a huge experiment with nibs. For the past two years (101 scrolls) I have used osmoroid (spell ?) extra fine. I just purchased several nibs. Tapes, Mitchell and some others I can't remember. The thing is I had to try as many as possible. Some where too flexible. Others too stiff. At this time for me, I like the Mitchell. As Time goes on and I learn more, I am sure that I will be able to learn to control all the nibs. Michel ps. Avelina. . . Master Herald has promised to show me how to sharpen nibs with a stone. If you want to sit in, let me know. Maybe at Pennsic. >>> Knott Deanna 06/16/98 10:15am >>> Hi y'all! In addition to the 3 questions I psoited earlier, there is this one... 4) For those of you that have tried this before, what was your favorite commercially available nib? I started with a Speedball (yup, I know what you all are going to say, Lose it) C5. It seemed like the nib was too fine. When I was playing with the C2, it seemed to clog much less. Is this a function of the pigment and nib, or was it a function of my inexperience? Thanks again, Avelina Du Pont _______________________________________________________________________________ From: Knott Deanna on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 08:52 Subject: [scribes]: Black Hours... To: scribes@castle.org Greetings, yet again! I want to play around with an AoA for someone whose favorite colors are black gold, and white. I was thinking about a black page. Now for the questions: I think these have been asked recently, but, I didn't understand the problem. Now I think I do. I can't get shell gold right now due to the cost. I have some Winsor and Newton imitation gold gouche in a tube (I also have access to the one in the jar, if this will help. I haven't tried the jar one yet though.) 1) Which have you found better, the gold or silver imitation is best for this? 2) I do my calligrapphy on a slant. The pigment was falling to the bottom of the letters. How do I avoid this? Was it too thin? Would gum aarabic help? Will I have to do the calligraphy flat to make this work? 3) What *does* gum arabic do? Thanks, Avelina Keyes Du Pont Pursuivant http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 - ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com with SMTP;16 Jun 1998 08:51:44 - -0400 Received: from cx39592-a.elcjn1.sdca.home.com ("port 2667"@cx39592-a.elcjn1.sdca.home.com) by Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #18654) id <01IYAKFPIMKS0005M8@Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com> for Knott.Deanna@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) id FAA17474 for scribes-list; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com [129.46.52.129]) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA17470 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moria.qualcomm.com (qualcomm.com [192.35.156.11]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.14) with ESMTP id FAA22660 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by moria.qualcomm.com id FAA12904 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com(131.131.251.1) via SMTP by moria.qualcomm.com, id smtpdAAA0X0SLo; Tue Jun 16 05:35:28 1998 Received: from mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com ("port 1170"@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) by Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #17886) id <01IYAQGCM1VO0019SJ@Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com> for scribes@castle.org; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:36:33 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: [scribes]: Black Hours... Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org To: scribes@castle.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-MS 3.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; Name="Message Body" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: castle.org: majordomo set sender to owner-scribes@castle.org using -f ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:49:53 -0400 (EDT) From: stacey jill wahrman Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black Hours... On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Knott Deanna wrote: > I think these have been asked recently, but, I didn't understand the problem. Now I think I do. > > I can't get shell gold right now due to the cost. I have some Winsor > and Newton imitation gold gouche in a tube (I also have access to the > one in the jar, if this will help. I haven't tried the jar one yet > though.) You can thin the tube stuff well enough to use it in a dip pen the same way you would a brush. The problem with the jar W&N is that it separates very easily and you have to keep shaking it in the jar to blend it. I imagine it would separate on the pen just as easily. My favorite gold gouache, if you have about $3.00 and a Pearl Art Center or a Pen and Ink catalog available, is Pebeo gold and silver gouache, both of which work well in place of shell metals and look metallic on the paper. W&N looks more bronze.> > 1) Which have you found better, the gold or silver imitation is best for this? > Either, I just don't like W&N. > 2) I do my calligrapphy on a slant. The pigment was falling to the > bottom of the letters. How do I avoid this? Was it too thin? Would > gum aarabic help? Will I have to do the calligraphy flat to make this > work? > You shouldn't need to add gum arabic to tube gouache, it's already there, or some other binder is. Binders are added to pigments to ensure they mix with the water, making it opaque as opposed to "floating" the way watercolors do. Yes, I would highly recommend doing this flat. It's hard to argue with gravity, and I think the little pigment bits in W&N are real metal of some kind, which makes them heavy (ditto most brands of metallic gouache). The consistency of your paint depends on how you're applying it. If it's with a paint brush, it can be slightly thicker. Think melted ice cream (someone on the list said that a while back, and it's the best description I've ever heard) If you're using a dip pen, it needs to be thinner in order to flow, so closer to the consistency of ink. Whole milk? :-) I'm actually going to be working on a black hours myself, once I finish a few of my current projects (nothing like multi-tasking!). I was pumping a friend for info for a surprise backlog scroll that's from AS 25, when the friend mentioned that her Laurel promissory was given to her 20 years ago, scrawled on notebook paper. I was horrified, and I want to do something spectacular to make up for it. In general I think the promissory/backlog system is a good one, but sometimes things fall between the cracks, and *no one* should ever get an award on notebook paper. Happy painting! Arianwen ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #82 ****************************