From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #81 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 081 In this issue: [scribes]: Lindisfarne/Kells Pigments Re: [scribes]: Lindesfarne Pigments [scribes]: Lindesfarne Colors [scribes]: RE:Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. Re: [scribes]: Lindisfarne/Kells Pigments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:57:03 EDT From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Lindisfarne/Kells Pigments I tried sending this twice already, and it bounced. Here is try number 3: Hello, scribes! Ah, back from a week in the Outlands, and so many messages to read! One respondent to this question listed the info in the Backhouse book, so I won't repeat it. Instead, I'll summarize some of the information in the __Book of Kells_ conference proceedings. This is talking about the analysis (by non-descructive means) of the pigments used in the Book of Kells, not Lindisfarne, but the results are relevant. I intend to take the information here, plus the color card of period pigments available from Master John the Artificer, and come up with some gouache equivalents. Haven't done it yet, though (and have barely been home long enough to pay bills, so far -- this is a project that will have to wait a bit). The pigments used in the Book of Kells, as determined by spectral analysis, are: yellow: orpiment; yellow ochre red: red lead; red ochre (note that vermillion is NOT listed. Surprised me) green: green copper pigment; vergaut made from orpiment and indigo; sap green; green-brown mixture made from yellow-brown ochre and sap green purple: purple-colored dye; pink mixture made from purple-colored dye and chalk blue: indigo; blue mixture made from lapis lazuli (?), indigo, and chalk in a darker and a brighter variant); dark blue mixture made from lapis lazuli (?), indigo, chalk, and purple-colored dye(?) brown: brown ochre; iron gall ink; vergaut mixed with iron gall ink black: iron gall ink white: chalk. The article goes on to mention that they have analyzed 12 other Gospels Books of this era (though not Lindisfarne). The main red and yellow color for the insular mss. examined so far are red lead and orpiment, resp. They also mentioned that Kells has a particularly rich set: most Insular mss. had only one blue, purple, green, yellow, and brown or black. It also mentions "Following the analysis of Roosen-Runge and Werner, there seem to be a number of conformities with the Lindisfarne Gospels, but since our results for the Book of Kells disagree in some cases with those made only by microscopic analysis, it would be necessary to analyse the L. G. with the more precise spectorscopic method." In the footnote, it mentions that R-R and W.'s list for the L. G are: "Red lead, kermes, orpiment, yellow and brown ochre, oxgall, ultramarine, indigo, blue, red and purple folium, verdigris, vergaut made from orpiment and indigo, a pink mixture made from folium and lead white, brown ink with charcoal, and lead white. " So there is more data to throw into your hopper. Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid (Melinda Sherbring, Los Angeles) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:55:25 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: Lindesfarne Pigments I did a scroll based on a Lindisfarne Page many years ago. The main reason for the choice was I did not have the skills/supplies to use gold leaf so I picked a style which did not use gold. The plate I used as documentation (copied) was plate 22, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Painting, Carl Nordenfalk, Chatto & Windus, 0-7011-2242-0, probably published in North America by George Brazillier with a different ISBN (but that is another story). I fairly much matched the colours from that print to my work. I use Windsor & Newton gouaches with Cadmium Red Pale, Cadmium Yellow Pale, Ultramarine, Mistletoe Green, Purple Lake, Zinc White and Lamp Black as the tubes in my supply. Most of the colours I muted to some extent (maybe not the purple and yellow) and several shades were also used. I still only use this limited palette and mix up any other colour I need. The scroll won a Kingdom A&S competition. I have since bought the Backhouse book and been to London and seen the manuscript itself. The colours in the Backhouse book seem to match the colours in the manuscript. Whether the colours we now see in the manuscript and the colours when they were painted have changed much not known, but the book has had an adventurous life. as ever Thorfinn, Lochac, West Melbourne, Australia Thomas Brownwell wrote: > > Greetings one and all > > I've finished penning in all of the black outlines for a Celtic scroll with tons > of knotwork, and I'm at the end of my general knowledge. I intend to do the > painting myself but have no idea what are the appropriate colors to use, and > while I could guess I'd rather do it right. I want to use the color scheme from > Lindesfarne, which seems to be limited to 4 colors: red/orange, blue, green and > yellow. I have a huge set of Windsor-Newton gouaches. What colors should I > use? > > Also: > > Do I need to add gum arabic to the gouache (I'm used to doing so for my pen > work...)? Is it appropriate to use pure white anywhere, and if so, which one > (titanium, zinc, etc.)? Finally, which black (jet, ivory, etc.) would be most > similar to those in the original for outlining the knots, etc. > > My thanks in advance. Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jan 1995 13:47:29 -0700 From: Holly and Jake Gassel Subject: [scribes]: Lindesfarne Colors Hi there. Just a thought, and I apologize if this was already addressed (been skimming too many messages....) regarding the WN color palette for the Lindesfarne scroll. It seems that you (Thomas) are using a lot of pastel colors for your scroll, based on the white and then adding the color (good mixing technique, thats not my question.) My question is...how is one able to tell from the reproduction/photos whether the original colors were pastel or regular? I mean, what effect would that many centuries have on the original color? This has bugged me for a while on my own work--having the nifty big version of Kells with all the cool closeups, etc. In other words, I look at the reproduction, look at my research (ie-well, the would have had this color then, blah blah blah, and when I mix it from the same stuff now it looks like ) and then wonder what would happen if I left it laying around the house (or the monastery or the museum...) for 1000 years or so. All you pigment experts out there, is there a reading on this?? Mind you, I am NOT NOT NOT saying Thomas is wrong to do it more pastel-ly .... a theoretical philosophical scientific question only. Thanks. Ms. Aidan (waah-hh, missing my pals at Lilies...whine!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jan 1995 14:05:56 -0700 From: Holly and Jake Gassel Subject: [scribes]: RE:Scribal soapbox, thank you's, etc. Heather Swann wrote: > > Whereas I see some good points of courtesy made, I would make some > further points: > 1) If scribes are paid, this will lead to a higher level of work > expected. This will squeeze out the beginning scribes whose work may > not be regarded as worth the price. They will not get as much practice, > and may be discouraged. True, you don't expect armourers to give of > their art so freely, but when money is paid for it, you expect a certain > level of craftsmanship. While I agree to a point, I would tend to put more beginning scribes to work on things such as preprints (doing the line drawings and calligraphy for the master copy), local Baronial or Shire awards, tourney scrolls, etc. > 2)This will also create another problem- who will pay for the scrolls? > The Kingdom? Funds will dry up and fewer awards will be given because > the Kingdom will not be able to afford it. The recipient? Then scrolls > will only be for the wealthy- how many of us as poor college students > could have afforded an AoA scroll? Well, again I refer to preprints, which to my mind is a really logical solution to the problem of multitudinous AoAs and similar level scrolls. I don't personally think it is unreasonable to give nice well done preprints for this quantity of awards. ALSO, for upper level award scrolls, I feel that the recipient (or their friends, if the award is a surprise and they want a scroll given at the time of the award) could empty either their pockets or their BARTER SYSTEM. As one who does not do a great many things in the SCA (for instance, I sew poorly, leatherwork not at all, etc) I would rather trade stuff for scrolls than get cash. I would gladly also do a scroll for trade for something my husband wants (like that new helm, those nice new gauntlets, hint hint hint...). There are a great many things that poor college students with talent could do or make or help with or teach or whatever that are well worth the "price" of a scroll. > > I can't honestly see anything being accomplished by a strike...we're a > volunteer organization- if you don't want to do scrolls, then don't do > them. If you feel something should be changed, then put a new plan into > action. > > Miri Ditto the no strike vote. If you are in it for tangible thank yous, sorry but it won't always happen. I have been doing this for 14 years. I have (not including trade goods, see above) 5 tangible thank yous--three notes, a bead necklace, and a handmade book. All "tres cool". But I am no slacker. Prior to my laurel in AS 29, I had done over 150 original scrolls, a metric buttload of master copies for preprints, and I didn't even count the other miscellaneous things-tourney scrolls, letters for TRM, etc. etc. etc. Since then, I have eased up a bit, and traded a lot more. I should mention I do have a dozen or so Coins of the Realm from various TRMs for doing all those scrolls for their reigns, etc. too, but that is different from thank you's from the recipients. And I have to tell ya, each of those 5 thank yous have a prominent place in my home. The other way cool thank you was when a dozen or so of those recipients brought those scrolls BACK to Lilies to parade around at my laureling, as a testament to why they thought I deserved it. Anyway, as I am rambling yet again...I am not trying to pat myself on the back for doing a ton of scrolls. I could have said no at any time. Now, as an old and crotchety laureltype gal, I do say no a lot, and trade most of the time. But I do still do scrolls to "give away" cuz its what I do. It's how I contribute to the SCA, and its how I relax and its fun....and ok, I'm a little psycho too. If I'd had this much fun sewing or embroidering I'd have kept at that too, regardless of the thanks or lack thereof. Jumping off the soapbox and going back to sulking about not being at Lilies now... Ms. Aidan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jan 1995 14:28:53 -0700 From: Holly and Jake Gassel Subject: Re: [scribes]: Lindisfarne/Kells Pigments EowynA@aol.com wrote: > > The pigments used in the Book of Kells, as determined by spectral analysis, > are: > yellow: orpiment; yellow ochre > red: red lead; red ochre (note that vermillion is NOT listed. Surprised me) > green: green copper pigment; vergaut made from orpiment and indigo; sap green; > green-brown mixture made from yellow-brown ochre and sap green > purple: purple-colored dye; pink mixture made from purple-colored dye and > chalk > blue: indigo; blue mixture made from lapis lazuli (?), indigo, and chalk in a > darker and a brighter variant); dark blue mixture made from lapis lazuli (?), > indigo, chalk, and purple-colored dye(?) > brown: brown ochre; iron gall ink; vergaut mixed with iron gall ink > black: iron gall ink > white: chalk. > > The article goes on to mention that they have analyzed 12 other Gospels Books > of this era (though not Lindisfarne). The main red and yellow color for the > insular mss. examined so far are red lead and orpiment, resp. > > They also mentioned that Kells has a particularly rich set: most Insular mss. > had only one blue, purple, green, yellow, and brown or black. > > It also mentions "Following the analysis of Roosen-Runge and Werner, there > seem to be a number of conformities with the Lindisfarne Gospels, but since > our results for the Book of Kells disagree in some cases with those made only > by microscopic analysis, it would be necessary to analyse the L. G. with the > more precise spectorscopic method." In the footnote, it mentions that R-R and > W.'s list for the L. G are: > "Red lead, kermes, orpiment, yellow and brown ochre, oxgall, ultramarine, > indigo, blue, red and purple folium, verdigris, vergaut made from orpiment and > indigo, a pink mixture made from folium and lead white, brown ink with > charcoal, and lead white. " > > So there is more data to throw into your hopper. > > Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid > (Melinda Sherbring, Los Angeles) THANK YOU!!! This pretty much is the info I was looking for in my previous post. The wonders of modern technology!! Ms. Aidan ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #81 ****************************