From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #63 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, June 8 1998 Volume 02 : Number 063 In this issue: [scribes]: Re: Re: [scribes]: Gothic Versals question Re: [scribes]: Gothic Versals question Re: [scribes]: Gothic Versals question, and book recommendation Re: [scribes]: Re: doing your own scroll, Eastern Rite Re: [scribes]: Specializing and what I'm working on Re: [scribes]: Purple as a main color? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:23:13 -0400 From: morgandev@juno.com (Steven J Proctor) Subject: [scribes]: Re: I have an issue here. While it is true that the "wall hangings" design is usually a different design ethic I must confess that i have never viewed something hanging on a wall at "Proper Museum Distance" There are no little velvet ropes where these things hang. I usually have my nose pressed up against the glass, and this is usually what others will do as well. Even in museums I will get as close as possible to see the details (aren't those proximity alarms fun!). I look at my documents nose up close, and I assume that others will as well, so there is no change for me in the design. I do it like a book page. The point is to get as close to a recreation as I can within the level of my skill and talent, not to bow down to some modern design concept. I fit looks 'deflated' on the wall that's still how a page ripped out of a period book of hours would look. That's the point! To alter the design tolerances to fit a modern concept of decorative art is counter productive. If you really want to make a page to be viewed at a distance find one of the big missionary bible pages, that WERE made to be viewed from a distance. Morgan de Villarquemada On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:50:42 +0100 David Columbus writes: >I've discussed this matter with a few people about how we are >recreating book art that eventually hangs on the wall. There are definite >differences on design, proportion, line thickness, and a dozen other matters (All >too lengthy to get into here). > >In the end we are not making books... we are making wall hangings. >And that in itself calls for some changes in design. The outlines that >look terrific from a foot away many times dissappear when viewed from the >correct distance. Vines that are drawn the exact width that you see >in the book will look deflated when it is hanging on the wall. > >A quick trick is to hang a mirror on the opposite wall of your work >station, about five or six feet away. Very quickly you can hold up >the piece and view it in the mirror. This will then double the viewed >distance of the piece. It helps give a quick idea if things are going well >without the need for constantly getting up and down from your table. > >It's nice to think that we can create pieces that completely look like >the original but in the end, we are creating items to hang on someone's >wall. > >B'wana Christofano > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:22:04 -0500 From: castle.strongarm@juno.com (Terry & Andrea L Pruitt) Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gothic Versals question >Good morrow, my Lady. Using a different colour for the crowquill work >was >in fact done,...gold with black, red with black, etc. Would you like >me to >find the actual sources for you? > >-Felicity Blindshooter Unto Lady Felicity Blindshooter and other Fellow Scribes: Yes indeed, please list sources if you have them. I have a wonderful idea in my mind for next year's A & S... my Lord husband & I had a medieval-theme-SCA wedding, and I'd like to C & I our wedding vows using Textura Precisus and documentable illumination. 8) So it looks even more authentic, would anyone out there be willing to translate them into Latin for me? In Service to the Dreame; Lady Marsali Sorcha mka Andrea Pruitt Barony of Illiton Peoria, IL ^ ^ ///l\\ ///l\\ llllll llllll ll ll ll ll llllll ll ll ll ll ll ll llllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllll llllllllllllllll lllllllllllllll llllllllllllllll _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:12:26 -0500 From: gevehard@juno.com (Garret C Bitker) Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gothic Versals question Greetings, I thnk it depends on what style document you are doing. A quick question, you used two terms interchangably in your request (versals& capitals)could you clarify, I have learned that these two are usually not synonymous capitals are usually less decorated, while versals are usually painted on this an increased level of detail, often inhabited. So if you mean versals you can make them as complex as you want, the Grande Heures has some really spectacular examples. If you mean capitals I have seen less color work done on these, but the Hours of Catherine of Cleves show both large versals and capitals with some color used mostly red but not on the fine crowquill work but on an ascender, also evidenced are some capital in between with a colored letter and counter colored crowquill work. I quess it comes down to what style you are trying to emulate. YIS, Herr Gevehard von Baden _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:01:51 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gothic Versals question, and book recommendation Greetings fellow Scribes and in particular Lady Marsali Sorcha Your question is somewhat perplexing, because depending upon the versals you're using as an example, the quill work may have been done in blue or in red, but never black. I'm going to assume that you're using Drogin as a reference, since all of his pictures are B&W, and he's the only source that I've heard use the term Precisus. Upon opening it up to page 146-147 and looking at the complete set of Versal caps, I'm absolutely positive that all of the quill-work was in red and theVersals were blue. This observation applies only to the simple, flat, penned capitals with the frilly line-work around it and down the margins. Most of the prettiest examples of this come from the 1400's, where the capital was penned in blue and highlighted in red. I do have an example where the calligrapher penned in the capitals alternating red cap with blue lines and blue cap with red lines from about 1250 AD onward (page 145 of Christopher de Hamel's book "A History of Illuminated Manuscripts"). There is one example of a very tall "L" that extends up for 12 lines of text which is done half red/half blue, and the squirrel work is also mixed blue and red. Nowhere have I seen an example of a true Versal capital done in black, and I have not seen one imbedded in the text -- they *always* lie on/in the margin so that the frill work can have somewhere to crawl. Some rare variations include; an Italian text from 1375 that has alternating blue and blood red capitals with all the quill work in the traditional light red; several examples where a few of the caps were gold-leafed on raised gesso with red quill work; a few where the cap was mixed blue and gold with red quill work; and one very unusual example from the Luttrell Psalter (1325 AD) where the caps alternate blue with red frills and gold leaf with *purple* frills. There's one example in Backhouse's "Illuminated Page", page 127, where the cap is in red and it appears that the frill work is in *black*, but on closer examination it can't be. The black used in the text has faded to brown while the quill work has not. I think that it's actually a very dark blue/purple, so dark that it appears black in the photograph, though it's clearly not the same blue that you see everywhere else (there is plenty of standard blue on the same folio to compare it to). So, what have we seen? (1) use color for the capitals. (2) use a complimentary color for the quill work. Available colors for caps include red, blue, purple, and gold, and for quill work red, blue and purple. Wow, what a lot of choices! By the way, the only Versal symbol that broke the margin rule and *was* imbedded in the text was the Paraph, modernly written as a backward "P" (anyone who's used a good word-processor has probably seen the symbol). The Gothic version of it is a capital "C" with a long extended top arm, which stands for "capitulum q.v.", which is used "to indicate the beginning of a paragraph, proposition, stanza or section" (from "Pause and Effect", page 305, by M B Parkes). Paraphs were done in both red and blue, and often had quill work around them, in the complimentary color of course. By the way, "Pause and Effect" is a wonderful book dealing with punctuation from the earliest documents until it was pretty much codified in the early 1600's when printed books reigned supreme. Most of the book's contents follow the evolution of punctuation from early Celtic books up to the 1500's, and as an added bonus the author includes a complete set of plates at the back --B&W only-- but he does something absolutely fascinating for a calligrapher: he follows several classic pieces of text through the centuries showing their evolution (e.g. a page of Augustine's "De civitate Dei" -- "The City of God" from a very early example written AD 420 all the way up to the printed book, including an English translation printed in 1610). It's wonderful and I highly recommend it if you've got the bucks... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 02:11:38 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: doing your own scroll, Eastern Rite In a message dated 98-06-05 16:03:46 EDT, Ariannawyn@aol.com writes: << In Caid it is considered poor taste to do one's own scroll for an award. I'm pretty sure this is a Westernism that we inherited. What is the convention in your kingdom? >> >> When David Fletcher Stanwoode (from Calafia, I might add) was Laurelled, he did his own scroll and presented it as his Master work and it was truly wonderful-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 02:11:33 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Specializing and what I'm working on In a message dated 98-06-04 14:42:41 EDT, Luiseach@aol.com writes: << My last project was the calligraphy for a Laurel scroll on vellum, yummy stuff that it is, under partial heaven conditions-short lead time, great illustrating partner, my kids fixed dinner and my house is still a mess. Next project will be doing promissories for their soon-to-be-crowned Majesties of Caid, Ivan and Anastasiia; I start tonight. Luighseach nic Lochlainn >> Just a note.......today (Sunday) at Caid's Queen's Champion Tourney, ther was a People's Prize Tourney where they voted people's choice for best object d' arte, Luighseach and her partner won...........the calligraphy and illumination were absolutely increadible!!!!!! I think it is one of the best pieces I've seen........JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 02:11:34 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Purple as a main color? In a message dated 98-06-04 18:41:58 EDT, pearvert@apk.net writes: << Is there any reason WHY you have to have a period exemplar to allow you to do it? I did one for a friend who's colors were green and purple. All I did was change the blue and red to green and purple. When asked, the reason I gave was, "That's the colors she wanted!" The design is perfectly period and I find it a refreshing change from blue and red. >> Christafano is correct and you could say that your contract stated the preferred colours (very period practise) and verbal contracts are still contracts-JimBear ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #63 ****************************