From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #48 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, June 3 1998 Volume 02 : Number 048 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: removing lines [scribes]: specializing Re: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long(not anymore) [scribes]: Sepp Leaf Re: [scribes]: Outlining Re: [scribes]: What are you working on Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters Re: [scribes]: an online quest [scribes]: Re: Specialize? Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes]: Colored rulings Re: [scribes]: The Luttrell Psalter [scribes]: RE: white paint [scribes]: Black paper Re: [scribes]: specializing Re: [scribes]: What are you working on Re: [scribes]: Outlining Re: Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters Re: [scribes]: removing lines Re: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply Re: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:18:07 -0600 From: Holly and Jake Gassel Subject: Re: [scribes]: removing lines Marisa Herzog wrote: > > removing lines 6/2/98 > > The comments on the black paper have reminded me of something... > Does everyone automatically remove all the lines they have drawn as guides on > their projects? Many period examples of calligraphy and illumination quite > clearly still have the lines on them. > Is removing the lines a modern asthetic reaction, or are the period examples > with guidelines intact considered "unfinished"? > -brid > mists, west WEll, I cheat, I guess. I do my layout etc on graph paper, then use a light table to trace up onto the parchmet, paper or whatever. Therefore having no lines to erase or not erase. Those sorts of decisions just make my head hurt . Also, everytime I tried doing it "right" by drawing the lines on the good paper, one of three things happened: 1)I messed up bad enough to have to redo the whole darn thing; 2)I left the pencil lines and was bothered forever by my pesky sense of modern aesthetics, and/or 3)I tried to erase it, after waiting till I was SURE the ink was dry, and it wasn't. Which sent it back to scenario #1. So...I cheat. The recipients seem to like the scrolls, and I can sleep at night and still afford the materials to do the scrolls (since I rarely mess up bad enough to warrant a re-do at this point using this method) so I'll probably keep cheating. Ms. Aidan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:23:50 -0600 From: Holly and Jake Gassel Subject: [scribes]: specializing Aidan (the cheater) here. I do a variety of styles, depending on my mood, hand condition, and what is on my list of things to do. I like to learn a new hand to use for a scroll ie: the current Icelandic project, a past middle eastern project, etc. I also like to "make up" hands that look like stuff ie:cyrillic, runes, etc. When left to my own devices, I seem to go through phases where I will do a specific style for a while until I get sick of it (and learn it thoroughly in the process...) and then move on to another. Sort of a serial monogomy of scribeness... Currently I am in a "middle period" phase of stuff between the 10-12 th century. Kind of doing a survey of what they were doing in that time period in different places (any references????), and also trying to broaden my reference base for the viking-type scrolls (any hints????) Aidan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:22:56 EDT From: MRomero106@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long(not anymore) In a message dated 98-06-02 12:10:14 EDT, you write: << Okay Westies.....I've been commissioned to do a Viscounty scroll for a Western Viscountess is there a problem with a Caidian scribe (who is not warranted by the West) doing said scroll?-JimBear >> Well.....hmmm...Of course this is not the Western opinion, as I have often been accused of not holding to traditional Westie values. I don't see why a Caidain couldn't do a scroll for another Kingdom as long as they have cleared it with the Scribes in Charge. I will be doing a Caidain AoA for my wife since she has not been able to convince the past Caidain royal scribes to produce one of the two AoA scrolls having already been made for her. I checked with my superior and the then Caidain Kingdom Scribe and they had no problem with it and sent me the wording for the award. I then needed to contact them for seals and sigs. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Naquiib Zaid al-fallah Hajji (Merced Romero,Jr.) Barony of Fett Burg Principality of Cynagua Kingdom of the West (whew!) Stockton,Ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:30:58 PDT From: "I.C. Kessler" Subject: [scribes]: Sepp Leaf Maybe I'm just behind the times but I once ordered some supplies from this company and was very happy with their products. They have a dizzying array of gold leaf and gilding supplies and their catalog is great reading. Anyway I see they've put up a web site so here it is if you don't already have it: http://www.seppleaf.com/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 06:59:22 -0500 From: "Dorinda E Courtine-White" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Outlining Please respond to cavanaug@ymi.com To: scribes@castle.org cc: (bcc: Dorinda E Courtine-White/Auto/Cummins) Subject: [scribes]: Outlining [snip] > Oh, by the way, is it *bad* to outline my red and blue vines with a thin line of >black? [snip] ***Morgan's weird opinions ahead***** Well, it looks better now, doesn't it? Outlining has to go awfully far to really get out of hand. I'm one of the crazy people who outline darn near everything. It can really clean up the lines of a scroll. A caution, however: if you do your outlining in technical pen with ink, it will be painfully obvious that you have done so. Get your 000 brush, drink no caffeine for at least four hours, and paint them in. Ink belongs in calligraphy. [snip] Morgan Athenry, OL Dreiburgen, Caid Laurie Cavanaugh cavanaug@ymi.com The above conversation made me think about a topic I haven't seen covered here. I too outline almost everything (and usually with a tech pen, and yes, Morgan is right, you can tell), while my husband hates to outline at all. What I have noticed though, is that outlining with a tech pen looks much better from a distance - say the distance between my face and a scroll hanging on a wall. Has anyone given much thought to the differences between making scrolls for books that one would hold on their lap and a scroll for a recipient who will display it on a wall? Things that look fine close up sometimes get washed out when the scroll is displayed. Should we create the work for the way it will be displayed or make the viewer come close as though it were a manuscript? I have started to make the switch to outlining with a brush, but I doubt I will be able to wean myself from the tech pen completely! :-) Dorinda Courtenay (Dorinda Courtine-White) Shire of Heronter, AEthelmearc (Jamestown, NY) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 06:05:27 -0500 From: "Dorinda E Courtine-White" Subject: Re: [scribes]: What are you working on Michael Macdonald wrote: Greetings from Lady Michel Almond I was wondering "What is everyone working on"? Cygnus and I (after taking a break from the Scribal arts to fight in or Autocrat AEthelmearc Crown Tourney) are getting ready to start the County/Duchy scrolls for TRM of AEthelmearc. They will be later period Italian (the scrolls that is, not TRM's). We are still in the design phase, but may not have any calligraphy at all - instead using gold lettering in small amounts. We are combining elements from different scrolls and haven't quite settled on the details yet. (We will take one of those and one of those and one of those . . . ) This should take up most of our summer since our 14 month old son likes to "help" when we work. I also just finished a backlogged Keystone scroll (AEthelmearc service award). It was a standard French bar and leaf scroll with the leaves all done in gold leaf. Many, many leaves. I wish I had left more space for the award badge and the recipient's arms. A lesson learned. The only other thing I have done lately was a promissory for a recipient of AEthelmearc's new Order of High Merit for Service. The problem with being in a new Kingdom is that the names and badges for several awards have not yet passed, so everyone gets a promissory even if the award is known several months in advance of the event. Hopefully this won't create a big huge nasty backlog. I am amazed the volume of work being produced by the people on this list. I got all of the "what are you working on" responses at once and it is amazing! Makes me proud to be a scribe! Dorinda Courtenay (Dorinda Courtine-White) Shire of Heronter, AEthelmearc (Jamestown, NY) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:53:14 -0400 From: Linda Pancrazio Subject: Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters Greetings, (I want to be just like Thomas when I grow up. :) ) My favorite "letters only" book is: Explicatio Formarum Litterarum by Rutherford Aris. It doesn't have an ISBN, the publisher appears to be "Calligraphy Connection". It's available from John Neal Booksellers. http://johnnealbooks.com/ There are tons of plates of just calligraphy along and a fairly readable history to go along with them. Every page folds out and there's a timeline across the top showing important historical events that go with the hands shown. It's a very cool book for folks who love medieval letters. Genevieve Linda Pancrazio | SCA: Lady Genevieve d'Evreux Selma NC, USA | Elvegast, Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia lindap@ipass.net | http://www.ipass.net/~lindap Windmasters' Hill Scriptorium: http://www.ipass.net/~lindap/whscript.html In the Gallery: http://www.ipass.net/~lindap/whs-gallery.html Lady Bridgette's Pearl -- by Lady Lucia Bellini Lord Jason Kinslayer's Tempest -- by Lord Tankred bras de Fer Lady Stephania's Don Quixote -- by Gd'E ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:57:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: Re: [scribes]: an online quest And, for fun, can we do the same with "The Name of the Rose"? Graidhne ni Ruaidh BMDL, AEthelmearc On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Franchesca Havas wrote: > I have a bit of a challenge for you all. It is meant to be a fun one. In the > movie: The Last Crusade, we see many illuminations collected over the years > by Indiana Jone's father. Which are real? Which are fake? Where are the real > ones from? > > By real I mean which are copies of the real artifact. > > If not real what are they based off of? > > Lastly, of the ones that we can define where can we find them in > publications? > > Happy hunting!! > > Ches > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:09:26 -0700 From: guineth@juno.com (Emily SD Thompson) Subject: [scribes]: Re: Specialize? On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:50:38 +0200 Anna de Byxe writes: > >Just a general question. Do you Scribes and Illuminators out there >specialize in one or two different styles or is it "The more the >merrier". I have three styles I fall back on when I am in a hurry -- Celtic / uncial, Carolingian / bookhand, and Gothic / blackletter. If I am not in a hurry, I prefer to learn something new; I have something like 10-11 period hands I am competent with and for which I can decorate without any deep research project. I do prefer to have the time to go through my books again for things I have not tried yet. There are still a lot of things I have not tried in the 19 years I have been scribing. Sister Guineth the White Belden Abbey Dragons Mist, An Tir guineth@juno.com mka Emily Thompson Hillsboro, Oregon _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:53:57 +0100 From: David Columbus Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: >David Columbus wrote: > >> Yes, I have done a piece on the black d'Arches paper. Be aware that it >> will not take as much abuse as the white paper. You can't erase pencil >> lines easily because the eraser will leave marks on the paper. This means >> that you should only put down pencil lines that you intend to cover up with >> paint. This will, of course, present a problem for laying down lies for >> the calligraphy. > >How did you get around it? One possibility that comes to mind would be to put >down rows of dots instead of lines, so that they're less noticeable. I got around it by duplicating the style of the manuscript. I penciled in only the bottom line. Then after calligraphing the piece, the pencil lines were covered over with a thin line of gold. If I were to do a piece without the gold line I would probably use the drawing table and T-square. By lining up the T-sqaure for each line I would gage my baseline and minum line. Granted, it's not the easiest thing to do but with a little practice, you can calligraph in a pretty straight line. Part of the process is to look where you're going, not where you've been. As soon as you begin watching the letters you've created, your surely start to waver the next letters. Keep you eyes toward the next letter. Christofano ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Colored rulings > Ranthulfr Asparlundr, OL, KSCA writes: > >> > It is absolutely correct to retain your ruling lines. . >> > I've seen ruled lines that look like they were made with red >pencil. > What material were these made with (and what would be a modern > equivalent, if the period one is no longer available)? > > Thanks, > Branwen ferch Emrys This is not a difinitive answer, and I would be overjoyed if someone who does have a better explanation would jump in here. The best I have been able to find out from what I have read is that the medieval "crayon" was their version of a colored pencil. It could be a black/grey, or red, or other color. I don't know how it was made either. I think it may have been poured into wood like a pencil, and hardened, but it might also have been more like a hard colored chalk. This would be a really good subject for a worthy scribe to research. Ranthulfr Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:30:56 -0500 From: Janet Hetrick Subject: Re: [scribes]: The Luttrell Psalter Very Cool site, thanks for posting it. English Gothic, especially East Anglian style is my favorite, it screams medieval. An all-time favorite book(s) of mine is "Volume Five: Gothic Manuscripts 1285 - 1385" in the series A Survey of Manuscripts Illuminated in the British Isles It has over 400 examples of English illumination, most in b&w, but the reproduction quality is wonderful and a few in color that are really very nice looking. I highly recommend this book, or looking for it in a university library or interlibrary loan it. Loads of great information too. Jennet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:27:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Daffy + Chiara Subject: [scribes]: RE: white paint >What do you use for the white text on black paper? My initial results >were very faded looking, presumably because a lot of the pigment soaked >into the paper and disappeared. I tried thickening it with binder >(more gum Arabic), tinting it with a tiny bit of ochre, penning it on >very thickly (what a pain), and to noavail. Even the opaque white had >thin spots, but so does the original so I didn't feel bad about that. >What do you / have you done in similar circumstances? Was the original >penned using a lead-based white that is impossible to duplicate? I really like Dr. Ph Martin's Bleedproof White. It's very opaque, even thinned down. I don't think I've ever tried it in a nib, though... Chiara da Ravenna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:27:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Daffy + Chiara Subject: [scribes]: Black paper Greetings ... The discussion about black paper prompted me to chec out my Pearl catalog to see what they have, and here's what I found. Arches cover: "100% cotton acid free except black, medium texture, 4 deckles, watermarked, mouldmade, France" 250 grams 22x30 = $3.54 each, 30x44 = $6.68 each. Fabriano Murillo: "15% cotton, medium texture, heavyweight,mouldmade, Italy" 360 grams 27.5x39 = $4.66 each Cason Mi-tients: "65% rag content, acid-free, fade resistant" 160 grams 19x25 = $1.35 each ( this is kinda thin, and might need some sizing added, since it's really made for pastel/charcoal) Strathmore museum mounting: "40% cotton,acid-free mouldmade. Highly lightfast and excellent for pastel, charcoal, pencil, colored pencil and tempra." 32x40 = $5.16 each for 2-ply There are some others, but these are the only ones that seemed viable. I do't know how any of them take erasures. Hope someone finds this informative or useful. Chiara da Ravenna :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:46:07 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: specializing Hey cheater! Are you going to make it to Lilies? Would love to meet you- JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:46:08 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: What are you working on In a message dated 98-06-02 19:46:18 EDT, Dorinda_E_Courtine- White@notesbridge.cummins.com writes: << I am amazed the volume of work being produced by the people on this list. I got all of the "what are you working on" responses at once and it is amazing! Makes me proud to be a scribe! Dorinda Courtenay (Dorinda Courtine-White) Shire of Heronter, AEthelmearc (Jamestown, NY) >> Actually, I was feeling appalled at myself for not doing as much workas everyone else on the list.....the matched Flemish scrolls are going out this weekend and I had to paint a master for some invitations when I discovered how badly I need my glasses prescription redone so I'm not gonna do anything until.....well maybe I'll do some sketching when I'm at Lilies....and there are some classes....and there is some sewing to finish up before Saturday.....JimBear the slug ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:08:46 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Outlining In a message dated 06/01/98 15:48:38, Morgan Athenry wrote: <> I agree with Morgan about the tech pen (although I use mine for Celtic red dots, especially if I have to do LOTS of Celtic red dots) but I can't get outlines even enough with the little brush, so I use a tiny crowquill pen and gouache or liquid watercolor. Works for me, YMMV. Luighseach nic Lochlainn Dreiburgen, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:08:44 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters In a message dated 06/02/98 17:56:35, Genevieve wrote: <> Yeah, yeah, yeah, what she said!! I think the _Explicatio_ is one of the coolest books around. All the pieces shown have very good provenances, which makes it extremely useful as a source. In case anyone is interested, I'll bring my copy to Caid Coronation and Queen's Champion this weekend. Luighseach nic Lochlainn Dreiburgen, Caid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:43:58 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: removing lines Marisa Herzog wrote: > > removing lines 6/2/98 > > The comments on the black paper have reminded me of something... > Does everyone automatically remove all the lines they have drawn as guides on > their projects? Many period examples of calligraphy and illumination quite > clearly still have the lines on them. It depends on where you draw the lines. Most of the period examples (anglo/french) have the lines at the writing in the middle of the lined area and I like to put the lines exactly for the body of the letters instead, so for the last scroll I did. I put the lines for the body of the leter on in pencil and then removed them and with a diluted ink after that put the lines of the example onto the page. It looks exactly like the facsimile of the manuscript I wou=rking from, even if it is the wrong and longer way about. Arabic also draws boxes and places the calligraphy in the centre of the box as ever {thorn}orfinn, Lochac, West Melbourne Australia and it is winter down here now, but 18C and sunny is quite nice. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:49:53 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply Michel Macdonald wrote: > > Piers Blackmonster said . . . (snip) To be honest, I think I have found my > niche in the SCA. I may not be the best at scribal arts, but it's what I find > the most fun. > > . . . . > > Brilliant. I think this is the way most scribes feel. Its not for money or > awards that we do this. > > The most recent e-mails on this list have exposed several persons and > their ability to ignore the word "NO". > > No is a very simple word. It exits in every language and culture. It is one > of the first words every child learns and yet most scribes do not > comprehend its meaning. > > They volunteer their services willingly for the love of their art. No is a very easy word to say and it usually comes out as no, no, no problems as ever (humurously) Thorfinn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:31:54 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? David or Corinne Kohrn wrote: > > While I know several styles of calligraphy, I try to restrict myself to > one particular style at a time. If I am working on a large (week-long) > project in something Germanic, I find I need to stick to that script or > something similar for small projects done during that time. If I try to > switch between Uncial and Gothic, my letter spacing is affected. If I > try to switch hands during a single writing session, my pen angles will > tend to average out, and I will twist the pen when I shouldn't. > Calote > dragonfly@w-link.net I like working best in northern Europe of the early to mid fifteenth century, but I will try anything. The next scroll I intend to do as an Armenian cannon table with a Greek text from 12th or 13th century. The hardest piece I ever did was a calligraphic time line with the name of each script and the century it was used in on each line and do this for a dozen scripts. as ever Thorfinn, Lochac West Melbourne Australia ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #48 ****************************