From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #47 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 2 1998 Volume 02 : Number 047 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: removing lines RE: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply RE: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply Re: [scribes]: removing lines RE: [scribes]: removing lines RE: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? And lots of Questions! Re: [scribes]: current project Re: [scribes]: Re: Re: FW: [scribes]: current project Re: [scribes]: Yolk Re: [scribes]: Re: Re: [scribes]: The Luttrell Psalter Re: [scribes]: Specialize? RE: [scribes]: removing lines Re: [scribes]: The Luttrell Psalter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:12:09 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: removing lines Bouncing off Ranthulfr's comments: There's a really cool example of dry-ruled lines showing up in a document. If you have it, check out the page from the Arundel Psalter, plate 16, page 70 in "The Decorated Letter" by JJG Alexander. The page was clearly a generically ruled sheet intended for normal text but was then used as an illuminated page. The interesting thing is that the *scratches*, not creases, are actually showing through the text where the page flexes more readily and the colored pen-work has cracked (e.g. the "I" in the line "NEEXAVDI" has a clear line running through the middle of it). I have personally both creased and scratched lines in vellum and this example has the look of scratches. Until I recently looked at this I was really worried that when I scratched my work surface I was doing a big no-no, but I feel much better now... By the way, the Arundel Psalter was completed sometime between 1012 and 1023 in Canturbury at Christ Church Cathedral Priory, and there are a number of other documents by the same scribe (Eadvius or Eadui Basan). For a text-only page from Arundel, see "Historical Scripts" page C7-8, by Stan Knight. For an illuminated page from the Eadui Gospels, see "Illuminated Manuscripts" page 101, by Giulia Bologna. I thought it was way cool to see three different examples by the same scribe, to get a feel for how he liked to lay things out and what kinds of variations he personally used. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:29:55 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: RE: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply >>>No is a very simple word. It exits in every language and culture. It = is one of the first words every child learns and yet most scribes do not comprehend its meaning. This sounds familiar Michel! For those of you who don't know, this is the text for Michel's Queens = Cypher from HRM Caitlin of the East Kingdom for all of Michel's great = work. Michel is an inspiration to us all. Avelina Keyes Herald for TRM Lucan and Caitlin's Last Court http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 __________________________________________________________________________= _____ From: Michel Macdonald on Tue, Jun 2, 1998 14:16 Subject: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply To: scribes@castle.org Piers Blackmonster said . . . (snip) To be honest, I think I have found = my niche in the SCA. I may not be the best at scribal arts, but it's what I = find the most fun. . . . . Brilliant. I think this is the way most scribes feel. Its not for money = or awards that we do this. The most recent e-mails on this list have exposed several persons and their ability to ignore the word "NO". No is a very simple word. It exits in every language and culture. It is = one of the first words every child learns and yet most scribes do not comprehend its meaning. They volunteer their services willingly for the love of their art. Cool - ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com with SMTP;2 Jun 1998 14:15:57 -0400 Received: from 24.4.65.87 ("port 22939"@24.4.65.87) by Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #17886) id <01IXRHYP9UUI0012OI@Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com> for Knott.Deanna@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) id LAA02825 for scribes-list; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moat.castle.org (moat.castle.org [129.46.92.29]) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA02821 for = ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interqual.com (mail.interqual.com [146.115.37.10]) by moat.castle.org (8.8.5/8.8.5.s1) with SMTP id LAA07870 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from InterQual-Message_Server by interqual.com with = Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:01:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:00:37 -0400 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org To: scribes@castle.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: castle.org: majordomo set sender to owner-scribes@castle.org using -f ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:31:42 -0700 From: "Karen Jarvis (General Employment)" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply But isn't 'maybe' the opposite of 'yes'? Someone here in Madrone, An Tir is trying to tell me that 'no' is the opposite. Hmmm... Lady Valerienne de Menton Madrone Chief Scribe -----Original Message----- From: Knott Deanna [mailto:Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 1:30 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: RE: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply >>>No is a very simple word. It exits in every language and culture. It is one of the first words every child learns and yet most scribes do not comprehend its meaning. This sounds familiar Michel! For those of you who don't know, this is the text for Michel's Queens Cypher from HRM Caitlin of the East Kingdom for all of Michel's great work. Michel is an inspiration to us all. Avelina Keyes Herald for TRM Lucan and Caitlin's Last Court http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 ____________________________________________________________________________ ___ From: Michel Macdonald on Tue, Jun 2, 1998 14:16 Subject: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply To: scribes@castle.org Piers Blackmonster said . . . (snip) To be honest, I think I have found my niche in the SCA. I may not be the best at scribal arts, but it's what I find the most fun. . . . . Brilliant. I think this is the way most scribes feel. Its not for money or awards that we do this. The most recent e-mails on this list have exposed several persons and their ability to ignore the word "NO". No is a very simple word. It exits in every language and culture. It is one of the first words every child learns and yet most scribes do not comprehend its meaning. They volunteer their services willingly for the love of their art. Cool ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com with SMTP;2 Jun 1998 14:15:57 -0400 Received: from 24.4.65.87 ("port 22939"@24.4.65.87) by Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #17886) id <01IXRHYP9UUI0012OI@Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com> for Knott.Deanna@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) id LAA02825 for scribes-list; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:00:57 - -0700 (PDT) Received: from moat.castle.org (moat.castle.org [129.46.92.29]) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA02821 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interqual.com (mail.interqual.com [146.115.37.10]) by moat.castle.org (8.8.5/8.8.5.s1) with SMTP id LAA07870 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from InterQual-Message_Server by interqual.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:01:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:00:37 -0400 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org To: scribes@castle.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: castle.org: majordomo set sender to owner-scribes@castle.org using -f ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:34:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Elizabeth Maes Subject: Re: [scribes]: removing lines Illumination was added, usually in the form of decorated initials and capital letters. Yes, because that was the idealized form people were expecting. As Ranthulfr noted, there are several reasons why older manuscripts don't have lines visible on them today. I use dry point lines on almost all of my calligraphy - it is easy, it is easy to correct if you mess up, since they aren't really visible any way, and it is period. Dry point went out of fashion around the 12th century, according to a book I was reading last night on the Winchester Bible. It didn't go into any greater detail. Of course, 'out of fashion' in this case might mean in England, where that particular MS was made. And it usually means it just wasn't popular, not that no one used it. Móragh Midrealm - ---Cindy Baker wrote: > > I had heard somewhere that in the earliest books printed on a press, > illuminations and ruling lines were sometimes added as the printed pages > didn't look 'finished' without them. > Ellen > At 02:37 PM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > >> removing lines 6/2/98 > >> > >>The comments on the black paper have reminded me of something... > >>Does everyone automatically remove all the lines they have drawn as guides on > >>their projects? Many period examples of calligraphy and illumination quite > >>clearly still have the lines on them. > >>Is removing the lines a modern asthetic reaction, or are the period examples > >>with guidelines intact considered "unfinished"? > >>-brid > >>mists, west > > > > > > It is absolutely correct to retain your ruling lines. A lot of > >people take them out today because of various reasons, mostly I suspect > >from being used to a modern ideal. Some people put in ruling lines at top > >and bottom of the lowercase height, and those should not be retained > >because they are not very authentic. But for the look of a real medieval > >piece, consider keeping them in. > > > > When you don't see ruling lines it is usually for one of the > >following three reasons: > > > >1) The line was either thin color or something like crayon and has worn > >off, or 2) the photo sucks, or 3 early period pages were often ruled with > >drypoint. Later, especially in the Italian Renn. the drypoint reappears and > >may be a look back to classical times. (Classical for that period being > >Imperial style from Carolingian etc. where they were looking back at Rome > >as their ideal of classical). Drypoint is a blunt point metal stylus (like > >used on a wax tablet or for pinpricking) which is drawn across the page to > >create a crease. The crease makes a colorles, yet visible ruling line. A > >really good modern tool which can be used for this is a potter's scoring > >tool. It is a long, sharp wire on a wooden handle. > > > >Ranthulfr Asparlundr, OL, KSCA > > > >Randy Asplund-Faith > >Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration > >2101 S. Circle Dr. > >Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 > >(734) 663-0954 > >http://www.provide.net/~randyaf > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:12:51 -0700 From: Karen Williams Subject: RE: [scribes]: removing lines Ranthulfr Asparlundr, OL, KSCA writes: > > It is absolutely correct to retain your ruling lines. . > I've seen ruled lines that look like they were made with red pencil. What material were these made with (and what would be a modern equivalent, if the period one is no longer available)? Thanks, Branwen ferch Emrys ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:12:52 -0700 From: Karen Williams Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? And lots of Questions! Thomas Brownwell writes: >>This has kept the art of calligraphing from becoming boring for me > by raising the challenge each time I lift the pen to find something > new to add, > something different to flourish, etc. << > I find calligraphy comforting in its zen-like aspect, but I have still tried to learn as many hands as possible. I have two or three favorites, and I think that in the future I'm going to concentrate on them, because.... >>It can be tough because I actually have > to spend a while practicing before *every* major scroll, rather than > being able > to just sit down and whip out something in a comfortable script<< > I, too, have to spend time practicing before each scroll. At this point, I'm very happy with my calligraphy and would like to spend more time improving my illumination (all aspects). >>I keep photocopies, usually black-&-white but > more recently color also, of every scroll that I can. << > I keep photocopies, in color and reduced to 8.5"x11", that I keep in an artists portfolio folder (plastic folder with bound in clear plastic sleeves). I also make life size copies of the scroll which I store separately for reference. Branwen ferch Emrys ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:37:51 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: current project Greetings Graidhne: You asked: By the bye, Arches does a black cold press (I think) paper. Has anyone > ever tried this for one of the dyed pieces? I picked up a piece the other > day, and I'm dying to try it! I've used Arches Cover Black paper that is nice to work with. My mundane instructor recommended spraying it fairly heavily with Blair spray, though. If you do that before you draw or trace on a design with regular lead pencil, you can erase the lines fairly easily. I have used several colors of gouache on it to paint and write, it is nice paper, with lots of body. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Seneschale of the Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom ~~ Vert, a unicorn head couped close Argent, crinned and armed Or, and in sinister, a gore Or ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:41:16 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: In a message dated 98-06-02 13:24:19 EDT, vikinglord@worldnet.att.net writes: << Try an eraser call a pic-it(this is only one of the names the thing sold under, but it is grey and soft). Its a kneedable rubber that you press on to the paper and it lifts the pencil lines off with out rubbing. Or just leave the lines as they did in period. Lady Jana >> Believe it or not it leaves a light area there in the shape of the eraser. Like I said it is zero tolerance paper-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:41:13 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: [scribes]: current project In a message dated 98-06-02 12:58:01 EDT, MPerry@ADE.com writes: << Do they make a hot press variety? What weights does it come in? Inquiring minds want to know! 8) Kenrick >> I'm not sure but I think all their coloured paper is cold press. There are probably others better versed in paper than I-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:41:11 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Yolk In a message dated 98-06-02 12:24:44 EDT, randyaf@provide.net writes: << So here's some questions for you folks who use yolk on scrolls: 1) How do you keep it from flaking and cracking? Do you add something, paint it thinner, or just not seem to see a problem after the first year or two?>> I find using several layers with almost equal proportions of distilled water, yolk, and pigment works best for me and I have found no cracking ( sometimes a small, WAY SMALL amount of crazing(lots of teensy cracks)). I try to vary the direction of the brush strokes....the fist layer is in crosses(almost an infinity sign) then successive layers at 45 degree angle to the previous. BTW the first layer method of painting was taught to me by a rather famous scenic painter as an efficient way of blending a space.........the final layer will depend on the effect I wish to achieve...fur, texture, etc. I also encourage the reciepient to at least mount the scroll on acid free board, the face covered with acid free paper if they can't get it framed right away..... <<2) What period sources do you have for its use on the page as opposed to on the panel?>> Actually, other than a passing reference in DVT "Techniques and Materials", regarding reds most especially, I haven't really bothered to try.....I find that glair is way to flat for my taste and can look chalky (which is my complaint with gouche too) so yolk tempera is my choice....getting back to cracking I seen more panels crack after a year or so that any of my pages....I chalk it up to possibly not taking enough time between layers of either the original ground or successive layers of pigment.... << I'm still accumulating knowlege. I plan to do something with it one of these days. This is one of my gaps. Thanks ahead of time to whoever replies! Ranthulfr >> isn't that what's great about this list???-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:41:20 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: In a message dated 98-06-02 13:56:25 EDT, brownwell@home.com writes: << Christofano warns not to use pencil to scribe the lines on the black Arches paper, as it can't be erased. I agree, and have a suggestion. I and Lady Angharad just completed an AoA scroll on black paper modeled after the Aureum Codex page shown in the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Painting book by Nordenfalk from Braziller >> Saw it when it was sealed last weekend was very nice Thomas-JimBear BTW we sealed 34 scrolls and one book (you are very sick) this past weekend to be given out this comming weekend ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:01:35 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: The Luttrell Psalter I don't think I'd ever seen the Luttrell Psalter before, so I did a small search for it and finally tracked down some images from it. They are on Channel 4's website in London, and the address is: http://schools.channel4.com/online_resources/netnotes/hialp/hialpnn.html They show blow-ups of fun marginalia, for those of you who live to put cute critters in your borders. Happy hunting! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:14:09 -0400 From: Sally Burnell Subject: Re: [scribes]: Specialize? At 01:50 PM 6/2/98 +0200, you wrote: > >Just a general question. Do you Scribes and Illuminators out there >specilize in one or two different styles or is it "The more the merrier". > >Anna de Byxe Some do, some don't. I personally specialize in English Gothic of the late 13th and early 14th centuries (your basic bar and ivy style) and have begun lately to venture into some French and Northern French of the same time period. Calligraphy wise I like to do your basic 14th century liturgical Gothic script but I do a very good Insular Majiscule hand. Now if I could only get the hang of the Celtic illumionation styles. I've been trying to learn knotwork techniques and other Celtic motifs but I am so stuck in Gothic mode that it is a little tough to make the switch at times. So I can honestly say that I consider myself as specializing in the style I like to do the best. I've done it for so long that I feel comfortable with it and look forward to seeing what else I can do to expand on what I already know how to do. Lady Saradwen Ariandalen Marche of Gwyntarian Midrealm ICQ# 13015575 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:43:23 PDT From: "I.C. Kessler" Subject: RE: [scribes]: removing lines >I've seen ruled lines that look like they were made with red pencil. What material were these made with (and what would be a modern equivalent, if the period one is no longer available)? Thanks, Branwen ferch Emrys< I think it was something like a sanguine conte' crayon which is basically iron oxide and a wax (the daniel smith catalog says it has a base of kaolin or "terra alba", a light yellow clay pigment used as filler). They are available in art supply stores in either a stick form, like charcoil or in a "wood pencil" form that you sharpen with a knife/sandpaper. I have used the wood pencil version to line pages for calligraphy and to sketch under paint. Keep the point sharp and use a light hand. It came out a nice brownish red and it didn't come through the paint. - - Isabel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:49:50 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz (KHvS)" Subject: Re: [scribes]: The Luttrell Psalter Dear Thomas, Thank you so much for posting the URL for the Luttrell Psalter. I only looked at one page of it before sending this e-mail, but let me say it is not one of the pages in Janet Backhouse's publication of the Luttrell Psalter. Now, if I could just figure out how to make their blow-ups larger, I'd be a real happy camper. I used J.B.'s book for a Maunche scroll I did a few years ago, and loved it then. If any of you get to look at it close up (like under a magnifying glass), you will notice that all the lovely rubication (?? is that the real term?) around the larger versals are little circles!! Totally fun to play with. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Seneschale of the Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom ~~ Vert, a unicorn head couped close Argent, crinned and armed Or, and in sinister, a gore Or ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #47 ****************************