From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #46 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, June 2 1998 Volume 02 : Number 046 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Specilize? Re: [scribes]: Specilize? [scribes]: Re: Specilize? Re: [scribes]: neat tip for period pigment useage...... Re: [scribes]: Specilize? Re: [scribes]: current project Re: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long Re: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? [scribes]: Yolk [scribes]: Re: What are you working on [scribes]: removing lines [scribes]: Re: FW: [scribes]: current project RE: [scribes]: removing lines Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters [scribes]: Introduction RE: [scribes]: Re: Re: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long Re: [scribes]: removing lines RE: [scribes]: Re: Re: [scribes]: Specilize? RE: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long [scribes]: Re: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters RE: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long [scribes]: an online quest Re: [scribes]: removing lines [scribes]: Intro [scribes]: removing lines [scribes]: Re: Specilize? And lots of Questions! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 08:44:44 PDT From: "I.C. Kessler" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Specilize? >Just a general question. Do you Scribes and Illuminators out there specilize in one or two different styles or is it "The more the merrier". Anna de Byxe< For me, the answer is specialize, but don't limit yourself to that specialty. Be good enough at one particular region/time/style/MS that you can ad lib a scroll design without a reference and people can identify the style or even the MS that inspired the design. Then teach a class or write an article on that style/MS and start working in a new one. Never stop learning. :) - Isabel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:48:48 -0500 (EST) From: Sara Harless Subject: Re: [scribes]: Specilize? On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Anna Troy wrote: > > Just a general question. Do you Scribes and Illuminators out there > specilize in one or two different styles or is it "The more the merrier". > > Anna de Byxe Yes, I "specialize" in Book-of-Kells style callig and illum because it's the only one I've found that I have a fighting chance of doing in a passable manner. I've tried most of the later hands with horrid results. Really ICKY. Occassionally I get to be creative with the knotwork; i.e. I'm doing a Scottish plaid in the knotwork on a Doe's Grace (Midrealm Queen's award for service) for a friend whose personna is late period Scots. It does keep my palette simple. I only use seven or eight colors most of the time. Evaine the Scribe (or Scribbler according to my Willow ;) ! ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:48:27 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? In a message dated 6/2/98 8:01:49 AM, Anna.Troy@bibks.uu.se wrote: >Just a general question. Do you Scribes and Illuminators out there >specilize in one or two different styles or is it "The more the merrier". > >Anna de Byxe > I do quite a few styles. It didn't happen overnight and I didn't plan for it to happen at all. I started out with Celtic and learned the other styles to break up the monotony of over- under- over - under-.... well, you know ;-) I have adopted a favorite, Late Italian Renaissance trompe l'oeil. It has been my primary style for about 3 years. Occasionally, the monotony of painting all of those gems can and does get to me. That's when I take a break and paint French Gothic (bars and ivy or acanthus) or Celtic or Viking or whatever comes my way as an assignment. I'm now working on adding Persian to my list of styles. A dear friend asked me to do a scroll for him and he has a specific manuscript in mind. Instead of just copying the scroll, I have decided to learn the style. I have done some research, but haven't even started the layout draft yet. No matter what style I'm currently working in, I always go back to the Italian Ren stuff. I think it's a drive to finally be able to do the style to perfection. As my skill increases I'm getting closer and closer to my goal. I now understand layout and balance as if it was a second language. It's so simple, but when you add all of the simple things together it makes one drop dead gorgeous piece. I get a real sense of accomplishment from doing Italian Ren pieces that I don't get from doing the other styles. Should I have to choose only one style to work in, I would be able to do that, but it's so much better having the others to fall back on if I'm bored. In reverence of chivalry and honor... I remain, Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:58:39 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: neat tip for period pigment useage...... Howdy! thought I'd give you all a tip that my student passed on to me regarding period pigment use/storage........ go by the cheapy contact lens cases (around $1.49) that snap shut, mix your pigment, water and yolk in the case (one for each colour) when you are done using it snap it shut when you need to use it again add a little distilled water to it and go...... she says that the pigments last in the case about 48hrs. can be stored outside the fridge and don't smell. After the 48 hrs. it tends to lose it's plasticity(sp?) and gets a little grainy-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:58:38 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Specilize? In a message dated 98-06-02 08:01:49 EDT, Anna.Troy@bibks.uu.se writes: << Just a general question. Do you Scribes and Illuminators out there specilize in one or two different styles or is it "The more the merrier". Anna de Byxe >> Again, I've seen it both ways.....the following is basically my bill of fare(with my reactions): Celtic (ugh!), 14th c French with grisaille(yay!), Flemish(okay, but you're lucky I like you alot), 15th c Italian "monument style" (yay!) Things I want to try: whitevine(somehow never done this one) a woodcut (will probably try it as a style then later do an actual woodcut with the ink and everything) and more grisaille!-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:58:34 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: current project In a message dated 98-06-01 23:59:19 EDT, hughesjp@fyi.net writes: << By the bye, Arches does a black cold press (I think) paper. Has anyone ever tried this for one of the dyed pieces? I picked up a piece the other day, and I'm dying to try it! Graidhne ni Ruaidh BMDL, AEthelmearc >> It's nice stuff but make absolutely zero mistakes on it and don't plan on removing any lines........-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:58:35 EDT From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long In a message dated 98-06-02 00:42:23 EDT, ickessler@hotmail.com writes: << On the other hand the West seems to have the most strictly regulated scribes' orginization, requesting an exemplar from it's would-be scribes, and requiring two kingdom scrolls a year to maintain your scribe's warrant. Here's what the "General Policies of the West Kingdom College of Scribes" has to say on the subject: "Producing award scrolls is supposed to be a contribution to the Society, not a money making opportunity. Any scribe who takes money for doing award scrolls in the West will have their warrant pulled and will no longer be allowed to scribe in the Kingdom of the West. The _only_ exception to this policy is if the recipient wants to use rather expensive "extras" on their scroll(i.e. gold leaf and real vellum) you may then ask them to pay for the materials unless you are ready to pay for them yourself." >> Okay Westies.....I've been commissioned to do a Viscounty scroll for a Western Viscountess is there a problem with a Caidian scribe (who is not warranted by the West) doing said scroll?-JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:20:48 +0000 From: David or Corinne Kohrn Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? While I know several styles of calligraphy, I try to restrict myself to one particular style at a time. If I am working on a large (week-long) project in something Germanic, I find I need to stick to that script or something similar for small projects done during that time. If I try to switch between Uncial and Gothic, my letter spacing is affected. If I try to switch hands during a single writing session, my pen angles will tend to average out, and I will twist the pen when I shouldn't. Calote dragonfly@w-link.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Yolk When I took my first lesson in illumination back in the early eighties at a SCA demo I was shown to use egg yolk. Then I started doing research and discovered glair and the proper use of gum arabic. I also learned that the reason my yolk pictures tended to crack and sometimes flake off paper was because yolk has a drying oil in it which becomes stiff. I stopped using it for anything not on rigid support. So here's some questions for you folks who use yolk on scrolls: 1) How do you keep it from flaking and cracking? Do you add something, paint it thinner, or just not seem to see a problem after the first year or two? 2) What period sources do you have for its use on the page as opposed to on the panel? I'm still accumulating knowlege. I plan to do something with it one of these days. This is one of my gaps. Thanks ahead of time to whoever replies! Ranthulfr Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:27:31 -0700 From: Holly Sullivan Subject: [scribes]: Re: What are you working on > >I was wondering "What is everyone working on"? From a list lurker.. I've been busy packing up my scribal stuff, as well as the rest of my house, while frantically trying to find another rental house here in San Diego. (for those of you in other areas, the market here is extremely tight right now - due to the rising cost of houses, many landlords are selling off their rental houses... there's a lot more demand than there are houses to go around. Bleah.) A lot of the apt. complexes have gone to "no pets" rules too. :-( We have to be out July 1. I did finally pick up Drogin's medieval callig. book this last Sunday at Borders; (the big book; I already had the the "King Arthur" one.) I gave up on GF Armoury in AZ ever sending me the one I ordered from them back in January. :-( - -- :-)---Holly---<--<-@ * ICQ 4316762 * FidoNet 1:202/720 * hollys@geocities.com San Diego Quilting Resources at http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/4201 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 1998 09:32:14 -0700 From: "Marisa Herzog" Subject: [scribes]: removing lines removing lines 6/2/98 The comments on the black paper have reminded me of something... Does everyone automatically remove all the lines they have drawn as guides on their projects? Many period examples of calligraphy and illumination quite clearly still have the lines on them. Is removing the lines a modern asthetic reaction, or are the period examples with guidelines intact considered "unfinished"? - -brid mists, west ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:52:43 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: [scribes]: Re: David Columbus wrote: > Yes, I have done a piece on the black d'Arches paper. Be aware that it > will not take as much abuse as the white paper. You can't erase pencil > lines easily because the eraser will leave marks on the paper. This means > that you should only put down pencil lines that you intend to cover up with > paint. This will, of course, present a problem for laying down lies for > the calligraphy. How did you get around it? One possibility that comes to mind would be to put down rows of dots instead of lines, so that they're less noticeable. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:52:40 -0400 From: Michael Perry Subject: FW: [scribes]: current project Greetings, Do they make a hot press variety? What weights does it come in? Inquiring minds want to know! 8) Kenrick > From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com on Tue, Jun 2, 1998 12:17 > Subject: Re: [scribes]: current project > To: hughesjp@fyi.net; scribes@castle.org > > In a message dated 98-06-01 23:59:19 EDT, hughesjp@fyi.net writes: > > << > By the bye, Arches does a black cold press (I think) paper. Has anyone > ever tried this for one of the dyed pieces? I picked up a piece the > other > day, and I'm dying to try it! > > Graidhne ni Ruaidh > BMDL, AEthelmearc > >> > > It's nice stuff but make absolutely zero mistakes on it and don't plan on > removing any lines........-JimBear > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:18:25 -0700 From: "Bj & Jane Tremaine" Subject: RE: [scribes]: removing lines I do not remove most lines. In the illumination most of the lines are covered over by the paint or outlining so there is no need. As far as the lines for the calligrapher, no I do not remove even though the inks are permanate I still leave them as they did in period. Lady Jana > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scribes@castle.org [mailto:owner-scribes@castle.org]On > Behalf Of Marisa Herzog > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 9:32 AM > To: sca scribes > Subject: [scribes]: removing lines > > > removing lines 6/2/98 > > The comments on the black paper have reminded me of something... > Does everyone automatically remove all the lines they have drawn > as guides on > their projects? Many period examples of calligraphy and > illumination quite > clearly still have the lines on them. > Is removing the lines a modern asthetic reaction, or are the > period examples > with guidelines intact considered "unfinished"? > -brid > mists, west > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:16:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Elizabeth Maes Subject: Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters For those who have suffered as Lord Thomas, looking for what are, in reality, paleography books, myself being one of them, I whole-heartedly encourage you to seek out the following collection of books: Codices Latini Antiquorum or just C.L.A., edited by E.A. Lowe They are THE BEST collection of stuff I've ever found. It is over 20 volumes, 14x16" or so, each one devoted to MSS currently in a specific geographic location. E.g. Vol. 9 is Britain & Ireland & etc. This is the CURRENT location of the MSS. You will also find plenty of Irish stuff in the volume from Italy and so forth. I think they were printed in the 60's. These books are ONLY calligraphy, no illumination. Everything in it dates pre-900!!!!!!! The ultimate for anyone interested in early period calligraphy. Each example has a transcription, so you can follow along and see what scribbles are which letters. Each example also includes the abbreviations used and what the abbreviations stand for. I can't recommend this enough. Slainte, Moragh inghean Eoghain Canton to be named at an even later date Barony of Northwoods Midrealm _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:14:28 -0700 (PDT) From: John Blankenbehler Subject: [scribes]: Introduction Greetings to all my fellow scribal artists: After lurking on this list for sometime now, I have decided to introduce myself. My name is Piers Blackmonster. I am a VERY newbie scribe. I attended a scribes and heralds colligium and took a class for beginning scribes. It was EXCELLENT! (thanks Roxane) I was hooked! After the event, I immediately went out and got my basic supplies - pens, paper, ink, brushes, etc. I had one small problem, I didn't know where to start. I decided to start with calligraphy. I did some Uncial, and some Gothic (Old English?). I can still use practice on these and have purchased several books on basic and advanced callig. I did a blank scroll with a Celtic pattern on the right with a large initial B and uncial script. Later, after much practice, I did a Keystone scroll presented at Ruffles and Rapiers event. That was a lot of fun. Since, I have been practicing callig and Celtic illum (got some related books). To be honest, I think I have found my niche in the SCA. I may not be the best at scribal arts, but it's what I find the most fun. In service to the poeple and crown of AEthelmearc, Piers Blackmonster temptabundus adfecto scriptor pursuivant-at-large fighter wannabe Champion, House Firebrand _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:23:49 -0700 From: "Bj & Jane Tremaine" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: Try an eraser call a pic-it(this is only one of the names the thing sold under, but it is grey and soft). Its a kneedable rubber that you press on to the paper and it lifts the pencil lines off with out rubbing. Or just leave the lines as they did in period. Lady Jana > David Columbus wrote: > > > Yes, I have done a piece on the black d'Arches paper. Be aware that it > > will not take as much abuse as the white paper. You can't erase pencil > > lines easily because the eraser will leave marks on the paper. > This means > > that you should only put down pencil lines that you intend to > cover up with > > paint. This will, of course, present a problem for laying down lies for > > the calligraphy. > > How did you get around it? One possibility that comes to mind > would be to put > down rows of dots instead of lines, so that they're less noticeable. > > /=================================================================\ > |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| > |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| > |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | > |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | > \=================================================================/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:28:34 +0000 From: "Laurie Cavanaugh" Subject: Re: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long > Okay Westies.....I've been commissioned to do a Viscounty scroll for a > Western Viscountess is there a problem with a Caidian scribe (who is not > warranted by the West) doing said scroll?-JimBear A former Scribe of the Mists here... They will accept any good quality scroll from anyone. They won't turn you down just because you aren't warranted there. If Aldith balks when the assignment request is made, tell her: 1. The recipient requested that you do it. 2. That Morgan said you were good. If that doesn't do it (highly unlikely that there would be a problem), wait until next week and we'll throw some documentation at her about the quality of your work. I have my own new dilemma... A gracious and slightly desperate lady called me up yesterday, really wanting to complete a matched set of scrolls for this weekend. She had done all the illumination and had only the calligraphy left, but her scribal supplies had been packed up, as her family is moving from Hawaii to Virginia, and she had to leave town this morning to spend the week with her mother, who is in her last days. (deep breath) Anyway, she has begged me to try to do the calligraphy for her this week, and offered to pay me for it. This is a hand I've never done (Roman capitals, and I didn't realize they were still in use in the early 11th c. for book text until I saw the book she took it from), and the calligraphy goes on top of gold acrylic paint, and I was _really_ wanting to finish this other scroll by this weekend and I can't do both. Her project is doable, though it is rather inconvenient, and I really need some money, as our paychecks are running about a week late and we all (at my work) took temporary pay cuts of 20% two months ago rather than get laid off. My instinct is to drop my own projects, sail in to the rescue, and not charge her anything. This would avoid the question of how much to ask for an estimated 12 hours of work, including practicing this hand. I also don't want to take advantage of someone in a bad spot. On the other hand, she called up out of the blue and begged for help. She's going to call me tonight and I'll tell her whether or not I can do it. Any advice would be massively appreciated! Morgan Athenry Dreiburgen, Caid Laurie Cavanaugh Young Minds, Inc cavanaug@ymi.com Splendor is worth the effort. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:41:36 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: removing lines Dear folks, Occasionally I have used penciled lines, and sometimes I have left lines in the scroll when the original had done so (in such cases the letters were usually a fraction of an inch above the line), but I prefer these days to use a dull protractor point to scribe the lines in -- or my thumb-nail. I run the implement/digit along the edge of the ruler; the line is visible as either a tiny depression or a shiny line along the paper. But, you can really do this only with good light, and I only do it on paper. -- j.v.n. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:52:19 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: Ya know... Just a thought, Kenrick has a book called "Beasts and Bestiaries" (or = something like that) where the scribe not only left his lines, but, put = gold leaf on them. If I or he remembers, one of us will try to get a more complete refernce = for you all tommorrow. Yours, Avelina Keyes http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 __________________________________________________________________________= _____ From: Bj & Jane Tremaine on Tue, Jun 2, 1998 13:37 Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: To: scribes@castle.org Try an eraser call a pic-it(this is only one of the names the thing sold under, but it is grey and soft). Its a kneedable rubber that you press = on to the paper and it lifts the pencil lines off with out rubbing. Or just leave the lines as they did in period. Lady Jana > David Columbus wrote: > > > Yes, I have done a piece on the black d'Arches paper. Be aware that = it > > will not take as much abuse as the white paper. You can't erase = pencil > > lines easily because the eraser will leave marks on the paper. > This means > > that you should only put down pencil lines that you intend to > cover up with > > paint. This will, of course, present a problem for laying down lies = for > > the calligraphy. > > How did you get around it? One possibility that comes to mind > would be to put > down rows of dots instead of lines, so that they're less noticeable. > > = /=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\ > |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| > |francis@thibault.org = |=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D| > |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | > |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | > = \=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D/ > > - ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com with SMTP;2 Jun 1998 13:36:54 -0400 Received: from 24.4.65.87 ("port 21810"@24.4.65.87) by Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #18654) id <01IXRABTSH000000QJ@Ballad.GSC.GTE.Com> for Knott.Deanna@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA02672 for scribes-list; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moat.castle.org (moat.castle.org [129.46.92.29]) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA02668 for = ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by moat.castle.org (8.8.5/8.8.5.s1) with ESMTP id KAA07799 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bjtremai ([12.64.112.199]) by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.03 118 118 102) with SMTP id <19980602172235.PLW14006@bjtremai> for = ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:22:35 +0000 Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:23:49 -0700 From: Bj & Jane Tremaine Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: In-reply-to: <35742DC2.40B827B6@thibault.org> Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org To: scribes@castle.org Message-id: <000201bd8e4b$34f673a0$c770400c@bjtremai> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Authentication-warning: castle.org: majordomo set sender to owner-scribes@castle.org using -f ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:48:04 EDT From: Varju@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Specilize? In a message dated 98-06-02 08:01:49 EDT, you write: << Just a general question. Do you Scribes and Illuminators out there specilize in one or two different styles or is it "The more the merrier". >> At this point I'm rather specialized, I do only Celtic. I recently went from just using a nice border to trying to use the actual manuscripts for inspiration. I've also started working in a smaller scale, with my last two scrolls having very narrow borders. I am trying to learn some other styles, however. Right now its High Gothic vines, but I would like to try the Italian Renaissance styles that were suggested to me, and I am seriously considering trying my hand at icon painting since it influenced Russian illumination. Noemi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:52:33 -0700 From: Karen Williams Subject: RE: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long Isabel writes: >> On the other hand the West seems to have the most strictly regulated >>scribes' orginization, It just looks that way. We have very few scribes in the central kingdom, and those that exist are very unorganized. The rules do exist, but are informally enforced. Branwen ferch Emrys ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:55:28 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Greetings unto the List from Thomas Brownwell Christofano warns not to use pencil to scribe the lines on the black Arches paper, as it can't be erased. I agree, and have a suggestion. I and Lady Angharad just completed an AoA scroll on black paper modeled after the Aureum Codex page shown in the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Painting book by Nordenfalk from Braziller (plate 33, page 97). Ours has the two crosses in gold, with the text in white. If you look closely at the original page, the text's lines clearly show up and were not removed (probably could not be). Therefore on ours I didn't worry about leaving visible lines. What I did was scribe every line on the darned thing with a sharpened piece of hematite, using a very light pressure. The lines were clearly visible, they but didn't affect my pen when it had to pass over them, nor did they show up through any paint on the page. The effect is very pleasant and does not detract from the overall look but rather seems to enhance it. I suggest giving it a try. My only other complaint was that I had to resort to commercial Opaque White watercolor stuff instead of my usual gouache for the non-black text. What do you use for the white text on black paper? My initial results were very faded looking, presumably because a lot of the pigment soaked into the paper and disappeared. I tried thickening it with binder (more gum Arabic), tinting it with a tiny bit of ochre, penning it on very thickly (what a pain), and to no avail. Even the opaque white had thin spots, but so does the original so I didn't feel bad about that. What do you / have you done in similar circumstances? Was the original penned using a lead-based white that is impossible to duplicate? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:00:37 -0400 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: [scribes]: Introduction -Reply Piers Blackmonster said . . . (snip) To be honest, I think I have found my niche in the SCA. I may not be the best at scribal arts, but it's what I find the most fun. . . . . Brilliant. I think this is the way most scribes feel. Its not for money or awards that we do this. The most recent e-mails on this list have exposed several persons and their ability to ignore the word "NO". No is a very simple word. It exits in every language and culture. It is one of the first words every child learns and yet most scribes do not comprehend its meaning. They volunteer their services willingly for the love of their art. Cool ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:07:40 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Medieval letters Greetings unto the list again. Milord Francis asked about the use of the Spanish enye as a holdover of the medieval abbreviation system ("nn" becomes "n~"). Indeed it is. French also has its holdovers, in particular the c-sedilla (a -c- with a contracted -s- under it) and the hat or circumflex ^ over vowels (a contracted -s-, i.e. "e^tre" came from latin "est" and "fore^t" meaning "forest"). I don't think that the acute or grave accent marks in French are similar abbreviation marks, but would love to be shown otherwise. Even our own apostrophe stands in for a missing vowel: "don't" means "dont", "I'll" means "Ill", etc. Are there any others I'm forgetting? I'm sure the other European languages that use accent marks and contractions have similar conventions of early medieval origin. It's so much fun seeing how our own language has evolved, and yet stays so much the same. I love it! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:18:11 -0700 From: Karen Williams Subject: RE: [scribes]: charging for scrolls - long >> Okay Westies.....I've been commissioned to do a Viscounty scroll for a > Western Viscountess is there a problem with a Caidian scribe (who is > not > warranted by the West) doing said scroll?-JimBear<< > Absolutely not. Please, feel free. Just make sure that the Kingdom Scribe (Mistress Aldith Angharad St. George, number in The Page) is told that you are doing so, so the scroll doesn't get assigned to someone else. Branwen ferch Emrys ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:23:53 -0500 From: "Franchesca Havas" Subject: [scribes]: an online quest I have a bit of a challenge for you all. It is meant to be a fun one. In the movie: The Last Crusade, we see many illuminations collected over the years by Indiana Jone's father. Which are real? Which are fake? Where are the real ones from? By real I mean which are copies of the real artifact. If not real what are they based off of? Lastly, of the ones that we can define where can we find them in publications? Happy hunting!! Ches ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:37:38 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: Re: [scribes]: removing lines > removing lines 6/2/98 > >The comments on the black paper have reminded me of something... >Does everyone automatically remove all the lines they have drawn as guides on >their projects? Many period examples of calligraphy and illumination quite >clearly still have the lines on them. >Is removing the lines a modern asthetic reaction, or are the period examples >with guidelines intact considered "unfinished"? >-brid >mists, west It is absolutely correct to retain your ruling lines. A lot of people take them out today because of various reasons, mostly I suspect from being used to a modern ideal. Some people put in ruling lines at top and bottom of the lowercase height, and those should not be retained because they are not very authentic. But for the look of a real medieval piece, consider keeping them in. When you don't see ruling lines it is usually for one of the following three reasons: 1) The line was either thin color or something like crayon and has worn off, or 2) the photo sucks, or 3 early period pages were often ruled with drypoint. Later, especially in the Italian Renn. the drypoint reappears and may be a look back to classical times. (Classical for that period being Imperial style from Carolingian etc. where they were looking back at Rome as their ideal of classical). Drypoint is a blunt point metal stylus (like used on a wax tablet or for pinpricking) which is drawn across the page to create a crease. The crease makes a colorles, yet visible ruling line. A really good modern tool which can be used for this is a potter's scoring tool. It is a long, sharp wire on a wooden handle. Ranthulfr Asparlundr, OL, KSCA Randy Asplund-Faith Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:49:03 -0500 From: Lady Mylisant Subject: [scribes]: Intro Yes, I actually read all of the Welcome message so here is my introduction. My name is Lady Mylisant de la Croix from the Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies. MKA Stacee Knouse, Memphis, TN. I've been interested in illumination for a while, but am just now starting to make serious attempts. (she says with a grin) I did a little calligraphy many years ago, but am now *way* out of practice. The actual illuminating is more my passion. Currently I am focusing on 14th and 15th century French illumination. Might as well start with what fits my persona ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:51:18 -0500 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: removing lines I had heard somewhere that in the earliest books printed on a press, illuminations and ruling lines were sometimes added as the printed pages didn't look 'finished' without them. Ellen At 02:37 PM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >> removing lines 6/2/98 >> >>The comments on the black paper have reminded me of something... >>Does everyone automatically remove all the lines they have drawn as guides on >>their projects? Many period examples of calligraphy and illumination quite >>clearly still have the lines on them. >>Is removing the lines a modern asthetic reaction, or are the period examples >>with guidelines intact considered "unfinished"? >>-brid >>mists, west > > > It is absolutely correct to retain your ruling lines. A lot of >people take them out today because of various reasons, mostly I suspect >from being used to a modern ideal. Some people put in ruling lines at top >and bottom of the lowercase height, and those should not be retained >because they are not very authentic. But for the look of a real medieval >piece, consider keeping them in. > > When you don't see ruling lines it is usually for one of the >following three reasons: > >1) The line was either thin color or something like crayon and has worn >off, or 2) the photo sucks, or 3 early period pages were often ruled with >drypoint. Later, especially in the Italian Renn. the drypoint reappears and >may be a look back to classical times. (Classical for that period being >Imperial style from Carolingian etc. where they were looking back at Rome >as their ideal of classical). Drypoint is a blunt point metal stylus (like >used on a wax tablet or for pinpricking) which is drawn across the page to >create a crease. The crease makes a colorles, yet visible ruling line. A >really good modern tool which can be used for this is a potter's scoring >tool. It is a long, sharp wire on a wooden handle. > >Ranthulfr Asparlundr, OL, KSCA > >Randy Asplund-Faith >Science Ficion & Fantasy Illustration >2101 S. Circle Dr. >Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 >(734) 663-0954 >http://www.provide.net/~randyaf > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:26:40 -0700 From: "Thomas Brownwell" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Specilize? And lots of Questions! Do I speciallize? No, actually I endeavour to do exactly the opposite, copying a different hand for every single scroll that I do. Of course there are only about 10 significantly different period scripts, but the variations are endless so I choose a page and learn *that* particular scribe's ideosyncracies and incorporate them into my hand. What I produce is still *Mine* but if you hold two similar examples that I've penned side-by-side you will definitely see some variation. This has kept the art of calligraphing from becoming boring for me by raising the challenge each time I lift the pen to find something new to add, something different to flourish, etc. It can be tough because I actually have to spend a while practicing before *every* major scroll, rather than being able to just sit down and whip out something in a comfortable script, but I think it's worth it and I haven't become bored yet! I will admit though that for simpler tasks (Baronial scrolls, etc.) that I sometimes take the easy way out by copying from one of my previous hands. Which brings up a bunch of questions... I keep photocopies, usually black-&-white but more recently color also, of every scroll that I can. They are fun to show off, and they make great references for future scrolls. Do you? Full-size or reduced? B&w or color? Do you also or instead always take photos? Do you bother keeping track of *when* you did a particular scroll? I've done so many pieces that I've actually been surprised when I walked into a friend's house and seen one of my works on the wall proudly displayed, having completely forgotten that I penned a scroll for them. Has that ever happened to you? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownwell@home.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, CA Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics stuff:: Or,a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #46 ****************************