From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V2 #28 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, May 27 1998 Volume 02 : Number 028 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: work surface angles Re: [scribes]: Question Re: [scribes]: ? on work surface angles [scribes]: List problems & name contest. Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. [scribes]: Lectern or Table-long [scribes]: slant vs flat Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. [scribes]: Domain names Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:33:01 +0000 From: "Laurie Cavanaugh" Subject: Re: [scribes]: work surface angles Caitlin de Courcy writes: > I use a sloped surface for both calligraphy and illumination (except > gold leaf): I find it better to have that pen angle when calligraphing > and I like being able to get close up to the illumination without bending > my back. My desk is adjustable but I generally use a fairly steep angle - > at least 45 degrees. I also find that by _having_ to use a different > work surface (a table close beside) to hold my paint palettes, water > pots and coffee cups I also run much less risk of knocking one of > the these over the scroll! More than once has the Horrible Ink Blob(tm) fallen from my pen onto my lap instead of onto the scroll because my table was at such a steep angle. (whew!) I haven't measured, but I guess it's at least 60 degrees. Morgan Athenry Dreiburgen, Caid Laurie Cavanaugh Young Minds, Inc cavanaug@ymi.com Splendor is worth the effort. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:46:43 -0400 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: Re: [scribes]: Question I found a wonderful manuscript that I would like to re-create. I found it on the web and was wondering if anyone had seen it in a book. The painting is The Annunciation Gualenghi-d'Este Hours Taddeo Crivelli Italian, Ferrarra, about 1469 It can be found at www.getty.edu/museum/objects/Manuscripts I have the J Paul Getty Book but this painting isn't in it. Any thoughts? Michel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:19:00 PST From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: Re: [scribes]: ? on work surface angles I am primarily an illuminator. I work on an angle of about 25-35 degrees. I have found that this angle is much better for my back than working on a flat surface as I tend to get close to my work with my eyeballs. I solved the problem of sliding trays and such by placing pieces of tape on my drafting tables which increase the surface friction of the table so that stuff doesnt tend to slide as much. I am concidering buying a sheet of smooth rubber to put down on the table to make this work even better. I try not to wax my tables at all. Cystennin sends Lord Cystennin Ap Gereint Drafn Calafia Caid aka Ken Stoner, San Diego --------- SCA Scribes list maintainer. E-Mail here for Qustions SCA_SCRIBES Web Site and FAQ http://freya.elgar.com/scribes.htm - --- "So longs as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this gives life to thee. " - W. Shakespear, Sonnet 18. - --- Argent, on a bend cotised azure between two pine trees couped sable a sword inverted proper. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:21:48 PST From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. Some of you may have noticed that the list is behaving somewhat strangely. Also, more of you noticed that the web page is behaving strangely. I am not sure what is up with the list, but CT is working on it. The Web Page was down becuase my company switched service providers and placed my machine behind a firewall. It seems to be fixed now. I will be migrating the page to a new location in the next couple of days. I am going to register a domain name for it (and us) and would like suggestions on what to call it. Any ideas? Cystennin sends Lord Cystennin Ap Gereint Drafn Calafia Caid aka Ken Stoner, San Diego --------- SCA Scribes list maintainer. E-Mail here for Qustions SCA_SCRIBES Web Site and FAQ http://freya.elgar.com/scribes.htm - --- "So longs as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this gives life to thee. " - W. Shakespear, Sonnet 18. - --- Argent, on a bend cotised azure between two pine trees couped sable a sword inverted proper. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:43:34 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. > I will be migrating the page to a new location in the next couple > of days. I am going to register a domain name for it (and us) and > would like suggestions on what to call it. Any ideas? > > Cystennin sends > > Lord Cystennin Ap Gereint > Drafn Calafia Caid > aka Ken Stoner, San Diego I'd go for simplicity and register scascribes.com. I just checked and that's not being used. Miri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:40:48 -0400 (EDT) From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Lectern or Table-long To quote myself: >> >> As an illuminator, you couldn't force me to paint on a slope. >...... >> The medieval scribes and illuminators I've seen depicted usually >> work like this for calligraphing and illuminating. >........ >> Ranthulfr Asparlundr > >Do you mean they had slopes for calligraphy and flat for illumination? >I am fairly sure I've seen at least some 'painters' working on sloped >desks. I wouldn't be surprised if there are also some working flat, but >then you also see calligraphers writing in books on their laps, so I'd >be reluctant to draw any general correct rule either way. > >Caitlin de Courcy OK, lets try to clear this up. I am not saying it is wrong to paint on a slope. I am saying it is better for ME for various reasons to paint on a horizontal surface, and that I believe it was common, but not neccessarily exclusive, for illuminators to do that. If you have not actually seen a picture of an illuminator at work on a sloped surface, let me point out a few from J.J.G. Alexander's MEDIEVAL ILLUMINATORS AND THEIR METHODS OF WORK (which bythe way, has a very realistic and not very IDEALIZED depiction of an illuminator on the cover who is working on a horizontal tabletop). On p.22 is an idealized picture of a pictor painting at a scribe chair platform. If he IS on much of an angle, his shells of color must be glued to the slope! The inclusion of those shells is a clue that if he works on any slope at all, it has to be shallow. After trying to figure out the mechanics of these chairs, I have come to believe that the anchor point of the shafts which support the board are hinged. That doesn't mean that it goes horizontal though. On p. 30 a fellow sits at a desk which is probably a flat table with a lectern placed thereon. A shell with color sits on the tabletop in front of him and he seems to paint on a slope. He holds the page with one hand and paints with the other. We must be careful how such images are interpreted though. Is this picture romanticised? Is the perspective distorted and we are seeing two horizontal surfaces? I look at this and I know that when he picks up his hand, that page is going to fall into his lap. When you work with a shell color you MUST use one hand to hold the brush and the other to hold the shell while you dip for color. Try it. If yo are not holding the page it falls. Of course there was no drafting tape back then, and no evidence I have ever seen of pinning the page to the board, but in the Simon Bening picture discussed next we will see a realistic, late period picture of a page sitting on a steep slope and being held mysteriously. Could there be some kind of soluble adhesive at work here? How many of you who paint on a slope tape your art to the board? Of you who tape your art to the board, do you ever work small, or do you ever have trouble with getting some curves right, or with some lines being shakey in execution (depending on their angle?) You may not have those problems (hand muscle/tendon mechanics), but if you do, mechanically speaking, you may be helped by not forcing yourself to work with the page forced into an upright orientation while you work. I am not talking about the slope here. I mean I actually rotate the whole page quite frequently while drawing curves and pulling straight lines. I find a lot of success with precision when I fill a color field from the inside of a curved line. I find that there is a limit to the angle of a large curve I can draw smoothly, so in order to contiue that curve, I rotate the page. This is MY prefered method because it works well for me. If you like it better the other way, then that is better for YOU. I should also say, that as it takes two hands to get the color to the right consistancy in a shell and to pull the brush out of the paint in such a way as to piont or flatten the hairs for the type of line you want, the paint starts to dry quickly in a small, half charged brush. So the time it takes to put down the shell, lift the page and orient it to the right angle, is time lost putting paint onto the page. Soon, the color won't flow with the critical control I need and this really hinders small, detailed work. Remember, my work is very small. I usually work on a page of 8x10 inches or less, including margin and full miniatures with text. I require very tight control. Same book, p. 34 the portrait of Simon Bening shows a steep angle platform with little shelves which depict shells of color on them. Now we are getting somewhere. This is a better clue about confirming someone painting on a slope. The fact that shells are on the shelves is a strong indicater we are seeing a pictor who works on an angle more like an easel for an oil painter. Does he rotate the page? Is the page really stuck there or just another simplification as is so typical in medieval representation? Here are a few things which you may wish to keep in mind when looking at depictions of artists at work: * Not all painters are illuminators. Are you looking at a panel painter? A Yolk tempera painter works with many of the same tools, but some are different, as are the panel methods (and often the scale). * Is the artist a calligrapher, an illuminator, or a rubricator? The rubricator works with several different colors, but used a pen to lay them in as would a calligrapher. * Are you looking at a realistic image or is there a forced perspective? * A personal question for me is whether the inclusion of the lecturn in earlier depictions might be meant to indicate a higher prestige by showing that the pictor is also capable of writing. That would mean he was closer to the church and at the right period, I wonder if that would be a way of showing "benefit of clergy" rather than settling for being known though time as only a craftsman painter. * Is the illustration simplified or romanticised? We have seen illustrations of practices which the pictor would have been very familiar with, where critical elements are not shown, or are distorted in some way. This is very typical in medieval art because the main goal was usually to show something in a story telling format, not in a "nuts & bolts" kind of reality. Think of it more like a stage in a theatre. Only objects which actually tell the story or actively set the scene are typically included as props. Backgrounds might as well be painted theatre backdrops. Why do you think tabletops were shown face up? It was to show what was on the table and indicate a feast, or some other event told by that detail. For scribes, we are lucky to see more than the artist's palette (hand held paddle palettes are for oil or oil tempera). How often have you seen the water jug, the drypoints, the bladders, the storage jars, the pen case, the glue sheets, the rags for wiping, etc.? These would be superfluous details which would complicate the message. In fact, the cover of the Alexander book shows the most complete set I've personally ever seen, and that is late period, middle 15th c. I hope this whole thing wasn't too long. I tried to make it interesting and fair. If you want to see what kind of art I do on the small scale and judge yourself the validity of these comments, I welcome you to check my web site listed below. Hit the scribe page button and you will get to see art. By the way,I have just added a picture I did a long time ago. It is a Theophilus text on making Spanish Gold. The minim height of the letters is about a sixteenth od an inch and the little brown man is 7/16 " high. My calligraphy is not so hot, but it was the first long piece I ever did with a bird quill. Ranthulfr Asparlundr, OL KSCA Randy Asplund-Faith 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 (734) 663-0954 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:30:34 -0500 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: slant vs flat This is a very interesting thread. I had not really thought about the table slant or set up I use until you folks started talking about it. Usually when I am working, it is not under the 'ideal' conditions. Our shire often meets at different people's houses to work and we end up using all sorts of surfaces. (TV trays, card tables, etc) I generally bring along a flat board of some kind and end up propping it in my lap. At home I have a drafting table, which I prefer for calligraphy. Working at a slant keeps my hands/arms/shoulders from getting stiff. (This is a real consideration for me as I have carpal tunnel syndrome) For illumination and painting, I have worked on both slanted and flat surfaces. When you are using watercolors that are thin enough for washes, it is sometimes an advantage to be able to 'tip' the paper to control the flow of the color better. (Not a period style of painting though). I do move (rotate & turn) the paper quite a bit when I am painting. It makes a BIG difference in brush control. I find it much easier to paint with the brush strokes running along the contours of the area I'm painting. When I paint on a slanted surface, the slant is usually minimal. At an extreme angle, it is harder to lay down a brush stroke using the length of the bristles instead of just the tip. (Boy, is this tough to describe in writing!) I guess it would depend a lot on your personal style of brushwork. I also have a drawing board which has a small 'rim' or raised ridge at one edge which keeps the work from slipping off the board into my lap or onto the floor. > How many of you who paint on a slope tape your art to the board? I never tape my work to the board. I sometimes tape a separate piece of paper to the board which extends well beyond the size of the piece I'm working on. Then I slip the paper I am working on under the taped down paper. As I work, I can slide the piece I'm working on up so that just the area where I'm writing or painting is showing. (Keeps your hands off the paper too) I have also seen people attach a weight to a string or strap suspended from the top of the slanted board. The weight rests on the artwork and holds it in place so both hands are free. (You would want to be careful what material your weight was made of as you would not want it to mark the artwork. The ones I have seen were encased in fabric) It seems to me that in many period pictures of scribes writing with a quill, it looks like they are holding the paper down with their pen knife while they write to keep it from slipping off the slanted table, or moving around under the pen. I don't recall seeing any medieval pictures of people painting -- sounds like another interesting area of research I'll have to look into. Ellen of the Scholars cebaker@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:42:10 -0400 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. > Why .com? Why not .org (standard naming for SCA groups so far)? > > Lyle FitzWilliam Because it didn't occur to me.....it has been a long day and my brain is tired and concussed. Either is fine....both are available. Miri scascribes.org scascribes.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:53:31 -0500 (CDT) From: ches Subject: Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. I do not know where you are located but in Ansteorra we have a single .org site that has been offered to the whole kingdom to do the web page on. We are putting together a page for the scribes in Dallas and as soon as we get the ok from the kingdom Sable Scroll We will do the same for the Kingdom! :) Maybe you can do the same? Ches On Wed, 27 May 1998, Heather Swann wrote: > > Why .com? Why not .org (standard naming for SCA groups so far)? > > > > Lyle FitzWilliam > > Because it didn't occur to me.....it has been a long day and my brain is > tired and concussed. Either is fine....both are available. > > Miri > > scascribes.org > scascribes.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:38:14 -0400 (EDT) From: hollis@slic.com Subject: [scribes]: Domain names Greetings Scribes, I'm new to the list, not a member of the SCA, but very interested in period illuminating, calligraphy, and rapier fighting. I've been following the thread about domain names, and found a few others that might be interesting. scribes.org callig.org calligraph.org (Painfully similar to calligraph.com, home of callig-list) parchment.org vellum.org pens.org penandink.org quills.org calandil.org (CALligraphy AND ILlumination) artsca.org encre.org (Ink in French) There are more, but I wanted to throw in a few to the pot... Hammurabi - ---------------------------- Hollis Easter hollis@slic.com "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead, anthropologist - ---------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:41:15 -0700 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: List problems & name contest. Heather Swann wrote: > I'd go for simplicity and register scascribes.com. scascribes.org would probably be more appropriate. /=================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org |===========================================| |Crosston, Mists, West| Any time somebody has a conditioned | |My LAN, my opinions. | response, they *always* think of Pavlov! | \=================================================================/ ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V2 #28 ****************************