From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V1 #87 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 087 In this issue: [scribes]: RE: Gabriel Guild [scribes]: Regarding Signatures Re: [scribes]: Regarding Signatures ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:00:20 EST From: PTS21@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: RE: Gabriel Guild In a message dated 98-02-23 08:52:07 EST, juliana@bellatlantic.net writes: << Has anyone here ever had any problems with ordering from the Gabriel Guild? I ordered 2 shell gold tabs & gum sandarac from them in Sep 97...it was out of stock and I was told it'd be in within two weeks, I said fine, gave them my credit card, no problem, they'd ship as soon as it came in & charge my account when it was shipped. Well, they charged my account that day. Two weeks went by, no order, a month went by, no order, many months went by.... the shell gold (finally! and only after several increasingly nasty phone calls) arrived last week. Of course the gum sandrac (which is what I really was waiting for) was nowhere to be seen initiating yet another phone call. *sigh* Anyone out there know what's up with them? I'm wondering if it's just my rotten luck or is this the way they normally do business? It's really too bad, as their prices are pretty reasonable. I know after this, I'll never order from them again. Please consider this a buyer beware notice. Juliana Stafford Rusted Woodlands, East >> WOW--I've only ever had GOOD luck with them, but I haven't bought anything from them in a while. I wouldn't give up on them completely--their prices are good and their information is priceless, but I also don't know how nasty the phone calls got. I need to order shell gold myself this week--If anything untoward is up, maybe I can find out. Cori Ghora, AEthelmearc deputy Signet Clare Jackson, North Tonawanda, NY (just north of Buffalo0 pts21@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:07:19 +0100 From: David Columbus Subject: [scribes]: Regarding Signatures Conal asked about signatures in period.... Since I don't have the actual question in front of me I can't be sure I'm addressing all of his query, but here is my contribution to the spread of information. :) If you really want to look at people's handwriting, looking in books on illuminated manuscripts and calligraphy is going to give you very limited access to that sort of thing. The subject you want for the actual handwriting of those people who could write in a given period is "paleography". And, as luck would have it, I have a couple of books of paleographic plates right in front of me. :) 1. _English Handwriting, 1400-1650: An Introductory Manual_ by J. Preston and L. Yeandle, Medieval & Renassaince Texts & Studies (Publishers), Birmingham, Ney York; 1992. This is the better of the two in terms of showing handwriting versus bookhand. 2. _English Vernacular Hands From the 12th to the 15th Centuries_, C.E. Wright, Clarendon Press, Oxford; 1960. Both books have letter-by-letter transcription beside the various facsimilie plates. This makes reading some of the plates much easier, because even though most of us on this list are probably fairly adept at reading early Modern English by virtue of our familiarity with the hand and our exposure to early texts in our researches, chicken scratch in any century is still chicken scratch. American Physicians in the 20th century.... English nobles in the 16th... wealth and education still fails to give some folks the life skills needed to write a clear sentance. Anyway, I noted that handwriting of a given day is pretty much a cursive version of the bookhand of the day. I looked at a bunch of heraldic documents, and, of those few with the entire document visable and decipherable, none had a royal signature. Those that were signed appear to have been signed by the herald issuing the document. the heraldic signature was always a cursive version of the formal hands. One has to be careful with "cursive" though, as I would suspect that the ductus for a cursive 15th century hand is very different from the cursive ductus we all learned in school. Heck, when I lived Over There, I had difficulty reading modern German cursive because the letter formation is so differet from American Midwestern. :) There are a million ways to make a piece of cursive. But I digress. Anyway, that is the gist of what I wanted to say regarding signature habits. :) I did also want to publicly reply to a private query. :) I was asked about when the Italic hand would have come into use in Spain. I can't give a precise date, but I can give you some guides. First, recall that the Spaniards were quite close to mother Rome. The first printed writing manual dealing with Chancery was Arrighi's _La Operina_ in 1522, which was in several reprints by 1533. _La Operina_ was written with the specific intent to provide instruction in writing the Chancery hand. "Chancery" was the documentary hand of the Vatican, and by 1522, printing technology had advanced sufficiently for Arrighi to be able to do a decent book and get it spread. "Chancery" is the hand we call Italic (although some purists will insist that Italic developed from Chancery and thus is a seperate hand. If you look at _La Operina_, you'll find that the distiction is quite arbitrary) Juan de Yciar published the first Spanish writing manual in 1548. Juan was quite familiar with Arrighi's (and Palentino and Tagliente, the other two major Italian writing masters of the 16th century) work, and relied on it heavily in writing _Recopilacion Subtilissima_. And a last seemingly tangental note; First prining press in the Americas was established by an Italian Printer using huminist and italic types in the year 1539 (in what would become Mexico City, for those who want to know). So, basing my view on the close association with Italy, the establishment of two writing books (Yciar 1548 and Francisco Lucas in 1577) with clear debts to the Italian works, including the italic hands, and the establishment of a Spanish New World printing press using Italian typefaces, I would suggest the following timeline loosely based on the pattern followed by England, which also started the 16th century with its own gothic hand and ended the 16th century with its own italic: First third of the 16th century. Most Nobles are aware of Italic, and some have their children instructed in this hand. Second third of the sixteenth century: Nobility aware of Italic, perhaps 1/3 use it at least on occassion; publication (printed) of Yciar makes it possible for anyone with access to the book to learn italic. Last third of the sixteenth century: Nobles who finished education prior to advent of italic as a court hand are dying off. Although some upper eschelon people will cling to gothic styles, most are using italic or an italic-gothic amalgamation. By the end of the century, most literate people are using some version of italic. You really need to have a look at a writing book facsimile to understand just how much varience there is in "italic" styles. Virtuosos (sp?) made a practice of providing a lot of exemplers in their writing book, and you and I could both learn from the same manual and write in two entirely different ways. I must state up front that my refrences are limited to what is available readily in the United States; few works here are heavily focused on the history of writing in Spain. Most stuff here focuses on Britan, France, Flanders, and Italy, with an occasional work about other countries. ::sigh:: Works referenced in this missive in addition to the two mentioned above: Lewis Day, _Penmanship in the XVI, XVII, and XVIII Centuries_. World Book Encyclopeia, 1976 Donald Anderson. _Calligraphy: the Art of Written Forms_. Oscar Ogg. _Three Classics of Italian Calligraphy_ (facsimile reprint of the three Italian writing manuals) Alfred Fairbank. _A Book of Scripts._ Joyce Irene Whalley. _Students Guide to Western Calligraphy_. 1992 Sevile Universal Exposition. _15th Century_. Woodcock & Robinson. _Oxford Guide to Heraldry_. Volke & Weick. _The Breslaur Collection of Manuscript Illuminations._ Heather Child. _Heraldry_. This list would have been shorter if I could find a facsimile copy of Yciar. Since I couldn't, I had to piece it together. Sorry. Other people will have more information, I'm sure. :) Yours, M/E Merouda Pendray: Caer Anterth, Northshield, Middle. (Elyse C. Boucher: West Allis, Wisconsin, USA) Per pale sable and Or, a gryphon segreant countorney within an orle of feathers counterchanged. "Semper ubi sub ubi" http://members.tripod.com/~Pendray/index.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com New Year's of the week!! Enjoy.... 26 FEB 98 - Tibetian New Year - Dosmoche (The King's New Year) or Dosmoche - -- Tibetan Celebration of the Dying Year. 27 FEB 98 - Akbar - India calendar system based on the Kali Yuga system that dates back to January 21, 3102 BC. David Columbus pearvert@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:19:21 -0500 From: Linda Pancrazio Subject: Re: [scribes]: Regarding Signatures Thank you so much!=20 And thank you to everyone else who responded to my spanish handwriting question, I'll forward all these messages to my friend - then I get to teach him how to write his name - once he picks a hand. Yours, Genevieve At 10:28 PM 2/24/98 PST, Elyse Boucher wrote: > >Conal asked about signatures in period.... > >Since I don't have the actual question in front of me I=20 >can't be sure I'm addressing all of his query, but here is=20 >my contribution to the spread of information. :) > >If you really want to look at people's handwriting,=20 >looking in books on illuminated manuscripts and=20 >calligraphy is going to give you very limited access to=20 >that sort of thing. The subject you want for the actual=20 >handwriting of those people who could write in a given=20 >period is "paleography". > >And, as luck would have it, I have a couple of books of=20 >paleographic plates right in front of me. :) > >1. _English Handwriting, 1400-1650: An Introductory=20 >Manual_ by J. Preston and L. Yeandle, Medieval &=20 >Renassaince Texts & Studies (Publishers), Birmingham, Ney=20 >York; 1992. > >This is the better of the two in terms of showing=20 >handwriting versus bookhand.=20 > >2. _English Vernacular Hands From the 12th to the 15th=20 >Centuries_, C.E. Wright, Clarendon Press, Oxford; 1960. > >Both books have letter-by-letter transcription beside the=20 >various facsimilie plates. This makes reading some of the=20 >plates much easier, because even though most of us on this=20 >list are probably fairly adept at reading early Modern=20 >English by virtue of our familiarity with the hand and our=20 >exposure to early texts in our researches, chicken scratch=20 >in any century is still chicken scratch. American=20 >Physicians in the 20th century.... English nobles in the=20 >16th... wealth and education still fails to give some=20 >folks the life skills needed to write a clear sentance. > >Anyway, I noted that handwriting of a given day is pretty=20 >much a cursive version of the bookhand of the day. I=20 >looked at a bunch of heraldic documents, and, of those few=20 >with the entire document visable and decipherable, none=20 >had a royal signature. Those that were signed appear to=20 >have been signed by the herald issuing the document. the=20 >heraldic signature was always a cursive version of the=20 >formal hands. > >One has to be careful with "cursive" though, as I would=20 >suspect that the ductus for a cursive 15th century hand is=20 >very different from the cursive ductus we all learned in=20 >school. Heck, when I lived Over There, I had difficulty=20 >reading modern German cursive because the letter formation=20 >is so differet from American Midwestern. :) There are a=20 >million ways to make a piece of cursive. But I digress. > >Anyway, that is the gist of what I wanted to say regarding=20 >signature habits. :) > >I did also want to publicly reply to a private query. :) > >I was asked about when the Italic hand would have come=20 >into use in Spain. > >I can't give a precise date, but I can give you some=20 >guides. > >First, recall that the Spaniards were quite close to=20 >mother Rome. > >The first printed writing manual dealing with Chancery was=20 >Arrighi's _La Operina_ in 1522, which was in several=20 >reprints by 1533. _La Operina_ was written with the=20 >specific intent to provide instruction in writing the=20 >Chancery hand. "Chancery" was the documentary hand of the=20 >Vatican, and by 1522, printing technology had advanced=20 >sufficiently for Arrighi to be able to do a decent book=20 >and get it spread. "Chancery" is the hand we call Italic=20 >(although some purists will insist that Italic developed=20 >from Chancery and thus is a seperate hand. If you look at=20 >_La Operina_, you'll find that the distiction is quite=20 >arbitrary) > >Juan de Yciar published the first Spanish writing manual=20 >in 1548. Juan was quite familiar with Arrighi's (and=20 >Palentino and Tagliente, the other two major Italian=20 >writing masters of the 16th century) work, and relied on=20 >it heavily in writing _Recopilacion Subtilissima_. > >And a last seemingly tangental note; First prining press=20 >in the Americas was established by an Italian Printer=20 >using huminist and italic types in the year 1539 (in what=20 >would become Mexico City, for those who want to know). > >So, basing my view on the close association with Italy,=20 >the establishment of two writing books (Yciar 1548 and=20 >Francisco Lucas in 1577) with clear debts to the Italian=20 >works, including the italic hands, and the establishment=20 >of a Spanish New World printing press using Italian=20 >typefaces, I would suggest the following timeline loosely=20 >based on the pattern followed by England, which also=20 >started the 16th century with its own gothic hand and=20 >ended the 16th century with its own italic: > >First third of the 16th century. > >Most Nobles are aware of Italic, and some have their=20 >children instructed in this hand. > >Second third of the sixteenth century: > >Nobility aware of Italic, perhaps 1/3 use it at least on=20 >occassion; publication (printed) of Yciar makes it=20 >possible for anyone with access to the book to learn=20 >italic. > >Last third of the sixteenth century: > >Nobles who finished education prior to advent of italic as=20 >a court hand are dying off. Although some upper eschelon=20 >people will cling to gothic styles, most are using italic=20 >or an italic-gothic amalgamation. > >By the end of the century, most literate people are using=20 >some version of italic. You really need to have a look at=20 >a writing book facsimile to understand just how much=20 >varience there is in "italic" styles. Virtuosos (sp?) made=20 >a practice of providing a lot of exemplers in their=20 >writing book, and you and I could both learn from the same=20 >manual and write in two entirely different ways.=20 > >I must state up front that my refrences are limited to=20 >what is available readily in the United States; few works=20 >here are heavily focused on the history of writing in=20 >Spain. Most stuff here focuses on Britan, France,=20 >Flanders, and Italy, with an occasional work about other=20 >countries. ::sigh:: > >Works referenced in this missive in addition to the two=20 >mentioned above: > >Lewis Day, _Penmanship in the XVI, XVII, and XVIII=20 >Centuries_. > >World Book Encyclopeia, 1976 > >Donald Anderson. _Calligraphy: the Art of Written Forms_. > >Oscar Ogg. _Three Classics of Italian Calligraphy_=20 >(facsimile reprint of the three Italian writing manuals) > >Alfred Fairbank. _A Book of Scripts._ > >Joyce Irene Whalley. _Students Guide to Western=20 >Calligraphy_. > >1992 Sevile Universal Exposition. _15th Century_. > > >Woodcock & Robinson. _Oxford Guide to Heraldry_. > >Volke & Weick. _The Breslaur Collection of Manuscript=20 >Illuminations._ > >Heather Child. _Heraldry_. > >This list would have been shorter if I could find a=20 >facsimile copy of Yciar. Since I couldn't, I had to piece=20 >it together. Sorry. > >Other people will have more information, I'm sure. :) > >Yours, M/E > > > >Merouda Pendray: Caer Anterth, Northshield, Middle. >(Elyse C. Boucher: West Allis, Wisconsin, USA) > >Per pale sable and Or, a gryphon segreant countorney within an orle of=20 >feathers counterchanged. "Semper ubi sub ubi" > http://members.tripod.com/~Pendray/index.html > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > *****************************((****************************************** Linda Pancrazio )) SCA: Lady Genevi=E8ve d'Evreux >>>-------> Selma NC, USA (( -- Elvegast, Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia = =20 lindap@ipass.net )) Azure, on a bend wavy argent between two http://www.ipass.net/~lindap (( butterflies Or three roses purpure. }{ ******************************))****************************************** Windmasters' Hill Scriptorium: http://www.ipass.net/~lindap/whscript.html ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V1 #87 ****************************