From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V1 #85 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 085 In this issue: Re: [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V1 #73 [scribes]: Regarding Signatures ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:19:02 EST From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V1 #73 In a message dated 2/23/98 3:48:55 AM, bhw@psychology.nottingham.ac.uk wrote: >Except that a quill cut for writing with would no longer have any barbs. Of course they don't. No one expects this to actually be used for writing -- it is an heraldic charge. As such, it is the most recognizable drawn form of the charge, with the complex line of partition around the edge. I think you will find that most "quill pens" as registered by the SCA College of Arms are feathers with a minor variation on the tip, not solely the barrel (which would be indistinguishable from a wide line) . It is a badge -- a drawing-- not an object to be used for writing. I'm somewhat bemused by the confusion it seems to have caused. Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid Melinda Sherbring, Los Angeles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:28:56 PST From: "Elyse Boucher" Subject: [scribes]: Regarding Signatures Conal asked about signatures in period.... Since I don't have the actual question in front of me I can't be sure I'm addressing all of his query, but here is my contribution to the spread of information. :) If you really want to look at people's handwriting, looking in books on illuminated manuscripts and calligraphy is going to give you very limited access to that sort of thing. The subject you want for the actual handwriting of those people who could write in a given period is "paleography". And, as luck would have it, I have a couple of books of paleographic plates right in front of me. :) 1. _English Handwriting, 1400-1650: An Introductory Manual_ by J. Preston and L. Yeandle, Medieval & Renassaince Texts & Studies (Publishers), Birmingham, Ney York; 1992. This is the better of the two in terms of showing handwriting versus bookhand. 2. _English Vernacular Hands From the 12th to the 15th Centuries_, C.E. Wright, Clarendon Press, Oxford; 1960. Both books have letter-by-letter transcription beside the various facsimilie plates. This makes reading some of the plates much easier, because even though most of us on this list are probably fairly adept at reading early Modern English by virtue of our familiarity with the hand and our exposure to early texts in our researches, chicken scratch in any century is still chicken scratch. American Physicians in the 20th century.... English nobles in the 16th... wealth and education still fails to give some folks the life skills needed to write a clear sentance. Anyway, I noted that handwriting of a given day is pretty much a cursive version of the bookhand of the day. I looked at a bunch of heraldic documents, and, of those few with the entire document visable and decipherable, none had a royal signature. Those that were signed appear to have been signed by the herald issuing the document. the heraldic signature was always a cursive version of the formal hands. One has to be careful with "cursive" though, as I would suspect that the ductus for a cursive 15th century hand is very different from the cursive ductus we all learned in school. Heck, when I lived Over There, I had difficulty reading modern German cursive because the letter formation is so differet from American Midwestern. :) There are a million ways to make a piece of cursive. But I digress. Anyway, that is the gist of what I wanted to say regarding signature habits. :) I did also want to publicly reply to a private query. :) I was asked about when the Italic hand would have come into use in Spain. I can't give a precise date, but I can give you some guides. First, recall that the Spaniards were quite close to mother Rome. The first printed writing manual dealing with Chancery was Arrighi's _La Operina_ in 1522, which was in several reprints by 1533. _La Operina_ was written with the specific intent to provide instruction in writing the Chancery hand. "Chancery" was the documentary hand of the Vatican, and by 1522, printing technology had advanced sufficiently for Arrighi to be able to do a decent book and get it spread. "Chancery" is the hand we call Italic (although some purists will insist that Italic developed from Chancery and thus is a seperate hand. If you look at _La Operina_, you'll find that the distiction is quite arbitrary) Juan de Yciar published the first Spanish writing manual in 1548. Juan was quite familiar with Arrighi's (and Palentino and Tagliente, the other two major Italian writing masters of the 16th century) work, and relied on it heavily in writing _Recopilacion Subtilissima_. And a last seemingly tangental note; First prining press in the Americas was established by an Italian Printer using huminist and italic types in the year 1539 (in what would become Mexico City, for those who want to know). So, basing my view on the close association with Italy, the establishment of two writing books (Yciar 1548 and Francisco Lucas in 1577) with clear debts to the Italian works, including the italic hands, and the establishment of a Spanish New World printing press using Italian typefaces, I would suggest the following timeline loosely based on the pattern followed by England, which also started the 16th century with its own gothic hand and ended the 16th century with its own italic: First third of the 16th century. Most Nobles are aware of Italic, and some have their children instructed in this hand. Second third of the sixteenth century: Nobility aware of Italic, perhaps 1/3 use it at least on occassion; publication (printed) of Yciar makes it possible for anyone with access to the book to learn italic. Last third of the sixteenth century: Nobles who finished education prior to advent of italic as a court hand are dying off. Although some upper eschelon people will cling to gothic styles, most are using italic or an italic-gothic amalgamation. By the end of the century, most literate people are using some version of italic. You really need to have a look at a writing book facsimile to understand just how much varience there is in "italic" styles. Virtuosos (sp?) made a practice of providing a lot of exemplers in their writing book, and you and I could both learn from the same manual and write in two entirely different ways. I must state up front that my refrences are limited to what is available readily in the United States; few works here are heavily focused on the history of writing in Spain. Most stuff here focuses on Britan, France, Flanders, and Italy, with an occasional work about other countries. ::sigh:: Works referenced in this missive in addition to the two mentioned above: Lewis Day, _Penmanship in the XVI, XVII, and XVIII Centuries_. World Book Encyclopeia, 1976 Donald Anderson. _Calligraphy: the Art of Written Forms_. Oscar Ogg. _Three Classics of Italian Calligraphy_ (facsimile reprint of the three Italian writing manuals) Alfred Fairbank. _A Book of Scripts._ Joyce Irene Whalley. _Students Guide to Western Calligraphy_. 1992 Sevile Universal Exposition. _15th Century_. Woodcock & Robinson. _Oxford Guide to Heraldry_. Volke & Weick. _The Breslaur Collection of Manuscript Illuminations._ Heather Child. _Heraldry_. This list would have been shorter if I could find a facsimile copy of Yciar. Since I couldn't, I had to piece it together. Sorry. Other people will have more information, I'm sure. :) Yours, M/E Merouda Pendray: Caer Anterth, Northshield, Middle. (Elyse C. Boucher: West Allis, Wisconsin, USA) Per pale sable and Or, a gryphon segreant countorney within an orle of feathers counterchanged. "Semper ubi sub ubi" http://members.tripod.com/~Pendray/index.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V1 #85 ****************************