From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V1 #80 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, February 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 080 In this issue: [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V1 #73 [scribes]: Gabriel Guild [scribes]: Punctuation... [scribes]: Late Spanish Hands Re:[scribes]: Punctuation... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:43:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Barbara Webb Subject: [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V1 #73 > In a message dated 2/19/98 8:14:16 PM, lindap@ipass.net wrote: > > >How do you embattle a Quill? > > > >Does it have little squares running up its shaft? > > > > You draw a feather, complete with barbs (the "feather" part of the quill). > Then cut little square chunks out of the edge of the feather, through the > barbs, at regular intervals. Then finish drawing the business end of the > quill as if it had been cut for writing with. Except that a quill cut for writing with would no longer have any barbs. Look at any illustration of someone writing in a period source and you will see the quill consists of just the barrel. It is also fairly obvious when you use them that you can't easily hold a quill with feathers on for writing. Despite the ubiquity of the "feather" pen in historical movies and as a "medieval gift" item, I've yet to see any evidence that they were used that way in period (if anyone has counter-evidence, please pass it on). On the other hand it may be possible that as a heraldic charge quills do have barbs - does anyone know if "quills" as opposed to feathers were used in (period) heraldry & if so whether they were illustrated as barrels or as still barbed? That might explain where the general misconception about 'writing with feathers' came from... Caitlin de Courcy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:47:37 -0500 From: "June Lathrop" Subject: [scribes]: Gabriel Guild This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD4037.B3C43080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone here ever had any problems with ordering from the Gabriel = Guild? =20 I ordered 2 shell gold tabs & gum sandarac from them in Sep 97...it was = out of stock and I was told it'd be in within two weeks, I said fine, = gave them my credit card, no problem, they'd ship as soon as it came in = & charge my account when it was shipped. Well, they charged my account = that day. Two weeks went by, no order, a month went by, no order, many = months went by.... the shell gold (finally! and only after several = increasingly nasty phone calls) arrived last week. Of course the gum = sandrac (which is what I really was waiting for) was nowhere to be seen = initiating yet another phone call. *sigh*=20 Anyone out there know what's up with them? I'm wondering if it's just = my rotten luck or is this the way they normally do business? It's = really too bad, as their prices are pretty reasonable. I know after = this, I'll never order from them again. Please consider this a buyer = beware notice. Juliana Stafford Rusted Woodlands, East June Lathrop, West Milford, NJ - ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD4037.B3C43080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone here ever had any problems with ordering = from the=20 Gabriel Guild? 
 
I ordered 2 shell gold tabs & gum sandarac from = them in=20 Sep 97...it was out of stock and I was told it'd be in within = two=20 weeks, I said fine, gave them my credit card, no problem, they'd ship as = soon as=20 it came in & charge my account when it was shipped.  Well, they = charged=20 my account that day.  Two weeks went by, no order, a month went by, = no=20 order, many months went by.... the shell gold (finally! and only after = several=20 increasingly nasty phone calls) arrived last week.  Of = course the=20 gum sandrac (which is what I really was waiting for) was nowhere to be = seen=20 initiating yet another phone call. *sigh*
 
Anyone out  there know what's up with = them?  I'm=20 wondering if it's just my rotten luck or is this the way they normally = do=20 business?  It's really too bad, as their prices are pretty=20 reasonable.  I know after this, I'll never order from them = again. =20 Please consider this a buyer beware notice.
 
Juliana Stafford
Rusted Woodlands, East
 
June Lathrop, West Milford, = NJ
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD4037.B3C43080-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:45:32 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: [scribes]: Punctuation... Greetings Fellow Earthlings!! I made a post to SCA-East and haven't gotten any answers. Maybe one of = you has an idea. I will repost the note for those of you interested = below. Thanks in advance for your help. Avelina Keyes Dupont Pursuivant Barony of the Bridge East Kingdom >>>>>>Greetings! I was reading "The Holy Place" by one of the guys that wrote "Holy Blood, = =3D Holy Grail". For those of you familiar with the story, the book =3D contained reproductions of the documents Berenger Saunier allegedly found = =3D in the altar pillar. I was looking at the facsimile and wondering,'Was = =3D this really written in Roman Rustic or is that =3D just how this person's handwriting looks?' Then it occured to me that = =3D there was a question mark in the document. All of this leads me to my question. When was punctuation invented? I = =3D realized a lot of the examples of illuminations I may have looked at was = =3D mostly psalters, and maybe a cookbook or two and histories. I do not =3D read ancient languages very well, so it is hard for me to really grasp = wha=3D t I was reading, so I don't know if there were questions in the texts. Did punctuation always look the way we know it or did it evolve along =3D with the hands and printing styles? Maybe Cadell should add this to his quiz! :-) Yours, Avelina DuPont 'Per pale Or and Sable, three keys in pale fesswise counterchanged' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:22:33 -0500 From: "Elyse C. Boucher" <70521.3645@compuserve.com> Subject: [scribes]: Late Spanish Hands Greetings, gentles all. :) Been meaning to put my two cents in about this for a while.... Regarding Spanish hands: I looked thru some of my books for Spanish Info (a brief look, as I am still quite pressed for time) and came up with some generalities. 1. At least two Spanish writing masters were able to publish books--Juan de Yciar in 1548 and Francisco Lucas in 1577. These books were similar to the books of other writing masters of the time in that they showed a plethora of hands. 2. The gothic hand was still in use as a typescript and hand during a portion of the 16th century. However, it was more like the rounded, Italian gothic hand than the Northern versions of gothic. 3. The humanist hand was in use by the end of the 15th century as a typescript, but I haven't found any handwriting samples in this hand. I would suspect that it was in use as a hand, but can't be certain based on my limited references. 4. The italic hand was in use, based on handwritten notes in the Codex Borgia (I think). So, the point is that any number of hands would probably be an appropriate signature for the gentle seeking a Spanish hand. Actually, I would suggest that he choose his hand based on his persona's social/educational level. A well educated noble, accustomed to dealimg with the courts of the western world, would probably write with the Italic (possibly Humanist) hand, whereas a less cosmopolitan noble, a lesser noble, a less well educated gentle, a noble whose education had been completed prior to the common use of an Italic hand, a backwoods soul, or someone who learned to write just enough to sign his/her name would probably use a gothic script. I hope this is helful to you. :) Your Servant, Merouda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:45:47 -0500 From: "Elyse C. Boucher" <70521.3645@compuserve.com> Subject: Re:[scribes]: Punctuation... Well, I don't know precisely when punctuation was invented, but I do know that Rustica was often written without spaces between the words. Sometimes there were dots between words or the first letter of a paragraph written slightly larger in order to faacilitate reading, but to the best of my limited knowledge, question marks are right out for this hand used in period. Even the Carolingian manuscripts that utilized Rustica as part of its heirarchy of scripts don't appear to have question marks used in Rustica, although that may be a function of Rustica's use to write important passages rather than entire books by the time of Charlemange. (Question mark has appeared by this point in written history, If I Recall Correctly--certainly it is in use by the time of insular miniscule) Hope this is helpful to you. Your Servant, Merouda - ----------------- Begin Original Message ----------------- Date:23. 2.98 08:46 From:Knott Deanna,INTERNET:Deanna.Knott@GSC.GTE.Com To:INTERNET:scribes@castle.org Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Received: from castle.org (cx39592-a.elcjn1.sdca.home.com [24.4.65.87]) by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) with ESMTP id JAA01504; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) id GAA16453 for scribes-list; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:44:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: castle.org: majordomo set sender to owner-scribes@castle.org using -f Received: from moat.castle.org (moat.castle.org [129.46.92.29]) by castle.org (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA16449 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com (Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com [131.131.251.1]) by moat.castle.org (8.8.5/8.8.5.s1) with ESMTP id GAA29929 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:43:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com ("port 1153"@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) by Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com (PMDF V5.0-8 #17886) id <01ITWXXKEKO0000HLY@Sonnet.GSC.GTE.Com> for scribes@castle.org; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:45:32 -0400 From: Knott Deanna Subject: [scribes]: Punctuation... To: scribes@castle.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-MS 3.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; Name="Message Body" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk Greetings Fellow Earthlings!! I made a post to SCA-East and haven't gotten any answers. Maybe one of you has an idea. I will repost the note for those of you interested below. Thanks in advance for your help. Avelina Keyes Dupont Pursuivant Barony of the Bridge East Kingdom >>>>>>Greetings! I was reading "The Holy Place" by one of the guys that wrote "Holy Blood, = Holy Grail". For those of you familiar with the story, the book = contained reproductions of the documents Berenger Saunier allegedly found = in the altar pillar. I was looking at the facsimile and wondering,'Was = this really written in Roman Rustic or is that = just how this person's handwriting looks?' Then it occured to me that = there was a question mark in the document. All of this leads me to my question. When was punctuation invented? I = realized a lot of the examples of illuminations I may have looked at was = mostly psalters, and maybe a cookbook or two and histories. I do not = read ancient languages very well, so it is hard for me to really grasp wha= t I was reading, so I don't know if there were questions in the texts. Did punctuation always look the way we know it or did it evolve along = with the hands and printing styles? Maybe Cadell should add this to his quiz! :-) Yours, Avelina DuPont 'Per pale Or and Sable, three keys in pale fesswise counterchanged' ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V1 #80 ****************************