From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V1 #41 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, February 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 041 In this issue: [scribes]: ink/paint/gold leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint ? Re: [scribes]: ink/paint/gold leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint ? [scribes]: Re: : ink/paint/gold leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint ? [scribes]: broad gold 'squashed bug' borders [scribes]: leafing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 07:31:03 -0500 From: Linda Pancrazio Subject: [scribes]: ink/paint/gold leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint ? Hello, This is a question from one of the other scribes in my scriptorium. She posted it to our little local list, but we couldn't help her much. So I got her permission to send it here. Her address is susanla@mindspring.com, her name is Lucia Bellini - she's not on this list so she'd appreciate a "cc". Yours, Genevieve d'Evreux Brief intro: (since this is my first msg) Genevieve is 12th c Norman (but my favorite style is celtic). I'm better at Callig than Illum. I'm running Windmasters' Hill Scriptorium. I'm one of the Atlantian Signet's deputies (the Status Scribe - in charge of looking stuff up.) Linda Pancrazio is a CAD drafter with lots of nifty toys at work. - ---- begin forwarded message --------- Now, another question. Have others had trouble with Windsor Newton's Spectrum Red shedding a powder that stains nearby colors? Solutions? Does the spray fixative help this? Strangely, a mixture I use with spectrum red, yellow ochre, and van dyke brown doesn't do this. Also, I need a refresher. Which white is best to cover mistakes? I've been using zinc white to mix, but I think my cat carried off my other tube of white gouache and I need to replace it. (I'm trying not to think about where the first tube will turn up.) And finally, I'd appreciate a discussion of sequence in regard to ink/paint/gold leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint. I did the paint last on my first few pieces; I'm pretty sure someone told me that was the best plan. On my last pieces, though, I've switched, since it seemed that the gold was getting damaged by the handling that occurred during painting. It's also easier to clean up gold leaf that is a little too far into the painted area than it is to clean it off the white paper. And you can't paint over the gold, either. So I guess my question is, if it's better to do the gold leaf and then the paint, why is it better? - - Lucia Bellini - - susanla@mindspring.com - ------------------------ *****************************((****************************************** Linda Pancrazio )) SCA: Lady Genevi=E8ve d'Evreux >>>-------> Selma NC, USA (( -- Elvegast, Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia = =20 lindap@ipass.net )) Azure, on a bend wavy argent between two http://www.ipass.net/~lindap (( butterflies Or three roses purpure. }{ ******************************))****************************************** Windmasters' Hill Scriptorium: http://www.ipass.net/~lindap/whscript.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:42:43 EST From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: ink/paint/gold leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint ? In a message dated 02/06/98 04:34:07, Lucia wrote: << So I guess my question is, if it's better to do the gold leaf and then the paint, why is it better? - - Lucia Bellini Depending on the gouache and how thickly you apply it, it may have enough gum arabic to make the leaf stick to the paint. Happened to me on the first piece I gilded. If you are using composition gold leaf, this isn't as much of a problem, but with real gold, it is. It may even stick to your ink, so I would recomment the following order: pencil, then gold, then ink, then paint. Just my 2 cents worth. Luighseach ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:43:22 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: : ink/paint/gold leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint ? Greetings unto Lucia Bellini from Lady Eibhlin ni Chaoimh=0A=0AYour missi= ve was forwarded by Genevi=E8ve to the scribes mailing list. So it is=0Af= rom that forum that I received your question.=0A=0A>Also, I need a refres= her. Which white is best to cover mistakes? I've=0A=0A>been using zinc = white to mix, but I think my cat carried off my other tube=0A=0A>of white= gouache and I need to replace it. (I'm trying not to think about=0A=0A>= where the first tube will turn up.)=0A=0A=0AHere in AEthelmearc, we remov= e most mistakes by scraping them off *very=0Acarefully* with an exacto kn= ife. BTW , did I mention we do that *very=0Acarefully*.... 8-}=0A=0A Zi= nc white is popular for white work. It is the most readily available whit= e=0Ato use for coverage without much bleed through. Windsor & Newton does= make a=0ABleedproof White. It is recommended for covering mistakes and w= hite lettering=0Awith a brush. Bleedproof white is also a zinc, but somet= imes there is a=0Ayellowish liquid on the top and it really doesn't flow = well when used alone. I=0Ause this mixed with gouache zinc white. Yes, I = know the jar says not for=0Amixing. I think it has to do with the unusual= ly thick consistency and high=0Acoverage factor. =0A=0A=0A>And finally, I= 'd appreciate a discussion of sequence in regard to=0A=0A>ink/paint/gold = leaf, vs. ink/gold leaf/paint. =0A-----SNIP=0A>So I guess my question is= , if it's better to do the gold=0A=0A>leaf and then the paint, why is it = better?=0A=0A=0AI believe I read in _The Materials and Techniques of Medi= eval Painting_ that=0Athe order in period was gesso-leaf-paint. This has= a two fold explanation =0A=0A1) The gold needs to be burnished. The size= used in the paints has a lower=0Amelting point than the gold. If your bu= rnisher rubs over the paint, it will=0Aturn into a glossed surface...wher= e the binder doesn't melt and holds the=0Apigment. If the binder melts, t= he pigment lumps up almost like you've painted=0Awith wallpaper paste. (I= 've done this accidentally-it's virtually=0Auncorrectable)=0A=0A =0A=0A2)= If the gold leaf is applied first, when you paint, the paint seals the ed= ges=0Aof the gold leaf to the paper. There is less chance of catching an = edge and=0Aflaking or chipping off a piece of leaf.=0A=0APersonally, I in= k both before and after leafing. The first time so that I have=0Aa clear = boundary to apply my leaf inside. The second time, after gilding to=0Acle= an up the edges.=0A=0AHope this has helped to some measure=0A=0AEibhlin n= i Chaoimh=0AAEthelmearc=0AButler PA=0A=0A ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:00:50 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: broad gold 'squashed bug' borders Thank you all for your advise on rendering the broad gold borders with naturalistic flowers & bugs. I have several options to try out now! :-) Ellen of the Scholars Baile na Scolairi Middle Kingdom Cindy E. Baker Bloomington, IL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:10:12 -0500 From: ab873@jepms4.jep.cummins.com Subject: [scribes]: leafing I too pencil, calligraph, ink, leaf, paint, ink. I like a nice ink outline to use for putting down the gold. I do sometimes get gold to stick to ink (for example thin vines that really shouldn't have any gold on them) but it usually comes off or doesn't look too bad. I did once have some gold stick to calligraphy, but that is not a usual problem, and I would be much more unhappy to put a bunch of gold on the scroll and then mess up the recipients name. If I get the gold anywhere near the piece after I have painted (even for touch ups) I seem to find gold scraps stuck all over the paint, but then I am a messy person. :( Dorinda Courtenay (Dorinda Courtine-White) Heronter, AEthelmearc (Jamestown, NY ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V1 #41 ****************************