From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V1 #19 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, January 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 019 In this issue: [scribes]: Celtic red dots Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . [scribes]: Introduction Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . [scribes]: Hagiography [scribes]: Re: Welcome to scribes [scribes]: Re: [Scribes] What to do . . . Re[2]: [scribes]: What to do . . . [scribes]: Re: What to do . . . Re: Re[2]: [scribes]: What to do . . . Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . Re: [scribes]: Celtic Red Dots? [scribes]: Celtic dots [scribes]: Re: Promissories Re: [scribes]: Re: What to do . . . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:01:18 -0500 (EST) From: stacey jill wahrman Subject: [scribes]: Celtic red dots Someone asked the same question about uniform red dots in our scriptorium, and Mistress Allasondrea de Fano told us that she uses a wooden toothpick. I've tried the technique and discovered that you can get about 30 dots per toothpick end before the wood gets soggy, and the results do look uniform. Toothpicks also work very well for whitework dots. Arianwen ferch Maelgwn Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:33:34 -0500 From: PETERSR@spiegel.becltd.com (Peters, Rise J.) Subject: Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . Muireann ni Riordain of Ponte Alto, in Atlantia, wrote: >>In Atlantia, we use promissories for some awards, particularly AoA's. I <>like a lot! Parts of our kingdom have a fairly high concentration of people, >>but I don't really know the statistics as far as scrolls given out, etc. For >>major awards given, like Peerages, we often have the "real thing" to give, >>but not always. I would say this a little more strongly: in my experience, I have hardly ever known anyone in Atlantia to get a "real" scroll for an AOA, and very few folks get "real" scrolls for Kingdom orders of merit (I got a promissory for my Pearl). And the backlog is large; a scribe recently began work on my AOA scroll, which was awarded to me in 1995. This is relatively fast. Folks have received their Laurels and still have their AOA scrolls in backlog. Of course, the quality of the finished product when it finally appears is usually beautiful, they're almost always personalized to the recipient, and so on. A small number of scribes do a lot of lovely work here. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:44:42 -0500 From: Teri Nava-Vaughn Subject: Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . The Atlantian backlog list that I have is *gasp* 1145 scrolls long. (It is somewhat out-of-date and I know that our Clerk Signet has done an amazing job of reducing it). As I recall, only about 350 of them are actually "do-able" (registered arms, etc.) and more than half of those are assigned. The Crowns average about 40-60 awards given per reign with usually less than 10% being peerages. Having a few highly organized Crowns who are willing and able to assign scrolls long before the award is given has only happened here on rare occasion; thus, our team of 30+ active scribes is very busy. I do advocate quick, photocoped, handcoloured promissaries though, sadly, I see a lot of time and exceptional talent wasted producing nice promissaries that aren't a photocopy base. Mistress Celynen of Stow-on-the-Wold Lochmere, Atlantia (T. Nava-Vaughn, ~Washington, DC) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:02:10 -0500 From: Teri Nava-Vaughn Subject: [scribes]: Introduction When I subscribed, the listowner asked that a letter of introduction be sent. Here's a very quick summary: I am Celynen of Stow-on-the-Wold. I am the KMoAS for Atlantia, a member of the now somewhat defunct Educational Committee (though my branch which specialized in finding primary sources for "stuck" researchers is still active), and have been an active scribe in both Drachenwald and Atlantia. My scribal focus is generally 14th c. or later, though I have been known to do Carolingian and Romanesque. I received a Laurel for "things Flemish," which mostly meant C&I and Costuming. I am also Teri Nava-Vaughn. I've a degree in Archaeology, specializing the medieval hagiography, and will be starting my Ph.D this fall. Currently, I live on the outskirts of Washington, DC. Allesondrea already toted all the benefits of living here... Best Regards, C o'Stow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:27:58 -0800 From: "Carolyn Richardson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . >> "Is it possible that the Kingdoms where Promisorys are given out are the same Kingdoms where there is an extremely large population base and/or a large number of events?<< I don't think you can draw this relationship. According to the last figures I saw for membership (Oct 1997), the Middle was the largest kingdom population-wise and from what folks there are saying on the list, they nearly always give out finished scrolls with the award. The smallest kingdom population-wise is (was) Drachenwald (my list didn't have Artemisia on it yet) and it sounds like Drachenwald is also giving out scrolls with awards. Caid is around #4 or 5 in population but we give out promissories. I think it really comes down to how many active scribes there are and what levels of scrolls they can achieve. As you said, we don't have many active scribes right now - I think 8 is probably a low estimate, but I'd be surprised if there were more than 20 of us. BTW, overall membership levels have been dropping about 1000 members per year for the last 3 years and that doesn't seem to be turning around. Tetchubah of Greenlake Kingdom of Caid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:39:43 -0500 From: Michel Macdonald Subject: [scribes]: Hagiography Celynen of Stow-on-the-Wold stated . . . I've a degree in Archaeology, specializing the medieval hagiography. Welcome Celynen, Could you please confirm for me that hagiopraphy is the study of saints. And if true, could you recommend a book that list feast days for saints. Any thoughts? Michel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:53:46 -0800 From: John Stracke Subject: [scribes]: Re: Welcome to scribes Majordomo@castle.org wrote: > 1. Please send a note of introduction to the scribes list. Say who > you are, where you are, and what your scribal interests are. Hi! I'm Francois Thibault; I'm in Crosston, Mists, West; I'm a relative novice (I just completed my first assignment; I've been doing calligraphy & illumination for about 5 years now, but I was working on my own [translation: making my own mistakes] until 1.5 years ago). /================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke| http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org|===========================================| |Power Mac w/PPP | My strength is as the strength of ten | |My Mac, my opinions.| because my code is pure. | \================================================================/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:54:18 -0500 From: ab873@jepms4.jep.cummins.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: [Scribes] What to do . . . Thanks to everyone for the opinion. I feel a *little* less guilty about saying "no" when I just can't get a quality scroll done. We are having a lot of luck in getting new scribes started. Maybe it is bcause AEthelmearc does try to get an original scroll out to every person recognized at the time they are called into court. The scrolls are in constant demand, and the new scribes have been thrilled to pretty much have their first scrolls of award level quality snatched for use. Instead of having our new scribes work on pre-prints, our group usually has them do prize scrolls for our local events. People seem to value an original scroll much more than any prize we could get them. As a result, we have about a dozen people in our Shire who either do calligraphy or illumination or both and about half are actively doing new work. What I struggle with is the time. I don't have a decent scroll that I can do in three hours or even five or seven. If an assignment comes down with less than a week, I am in trouble. I am curious as to the standards different people have set for themselves at to what is the minimum level of complexity acceptable for an AOA scroll or a Kingdom Award scroll. (I realize that this might be tough to discuss since something called an "illuminated letter" could be a solid color with a hint of white work or a complex piece of art with a miniature in the middle and all borders are not alike). I know that the complexity level of the scrolls that I would like to do is going up, and I am finding it difficult to tone that done in order to get to something that I have a prayer of finishing for the event. Thanks for all the discussion. Dorinda Courtenay (Dorinda Courtine-White) Shire of Heronter, AEthelmearc (Jamestown, NY) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 10:30:33 PST From: kwilliam@savi.com Subject: Re[2]: [scribes]: What to do . . . Thorfinn, Lochac, West writes: >Always, a scroll done properly, researched and fitting with the >recipients character/persona. I have seen a beautiful Celtic scroll >done for someone who usually wore 14/15th century. This brings up another question about doing scrolls in advance: how do you know what the recipient would like? Surprise scrolls are all well and good, but if someone had always dreamed of having a Book of Kells scroll to hang on his wall and instead got leafy vines, is his disappointment worth the fun of the surprise? Branwen ferch Emrys The Mists, the West - ---- Karen Williams kwilliams@savi.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:45 -0500 From: ab873@jepms4.jep.cummins.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: What to do . . . Regarding whether or not to "surprise" people with a scroll that may not be what they want . . . Sometimes here people verbalize their dreams *before* they get the award. "If I ever get Knighted I would love to have Lord Soandso do a Book of Kells scroll for me". This can either be done with a loved one or someone who might be "in the know" (Like your Knight/Laurel/Pelican if you are Squired/Apprenticed/Proteged). It can also be done in reverse by the scribe by putting in an "order" with the Kingdom Signet. "If Lord Soandso gets his Kingdom A&S award, I would sure like to do it." Then you can sound out Lord Soandso as to his preferences months or even years before he gets the award. Of course it doesn't work for every situation, but it does help in some. Dorinda Courtenay (Dorinda Courtine-White) Shire of Heronter, AEthelmearc (Jamestown, NY) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:33:54 -0500 From: Donna Kenton Subject: Re: Re[2]: [scribes]: What to do . . . At 10:30 AM 1/29/98 PST, kwilliam@savi.com wrote: >This brings up another question about doing scrolls in advance: how >do you know what the recipient would like? If memory serves (and it doesn't always ), we encourage people who submit recommendations for awards to tell us a little more about the people they recommend. Also, when I get an assignment, there's often a contact person listed, whom I can call with any questions about the individual. I generally try to avoid that, because that's one more person apt to spill the beans about the award, but it's available if I need it. Rosalinde ____________________________________________________________________________ Rosalinde De Witte/Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com * http://www.dabbler.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:53:30 -0800 From: Laurie Jenkins Subject: Re: [scribes]: What to do . . . I think this is a fascinating topic. I have a feeling that what is going on is that those Kingdoms that give scrolls at the time of the award have created a climate of importance for scroll making that doesn't quite exist in Kingdoms that give promissories. The Kingdoms that do give scrolls have made the process very visible. We've seen that some of those Kingdoms have well organized guilds, rooms set aside for scroll making at events and obviously scrolls are seen at many many events. In Caid, a Kingdom that gives promissories, most scribes work at home, by themselves, we aren't terribly organized, and scrolls are generally only given out twice a year at Coronations. I bet the Kingdoms that do give scrolls with awards have a much higher ratio of scribes to non-scribes than the Kingdoms that don't (Of course it goes with out saying that every Kingdom has some incredibly talented scribes, but it is also possible that the Kingdoms that give out scrolls with awards have more because they have placed a great deal of importance on the art.) Hope that makes sense cheers aliskye ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:05:57 -0500 From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: Re: [scribes]: Celtic Red Dots? >> SNIP... Also, the dots are not red, they are actually >> a red-orange. If you have some vermilion gouache, it >> will probably be fairly close. I have found that red-orange >> stick ink is almost the exact match to my facsimile copy >> of the Kells. > >I am wondering if the color was orginially red? >I thought that the colors had faded at least somewhat over >time. I have looked at a facsimile, but not in the depth >you have. > >Would you comment on the color fading issues >with regards to the paints used? > >Many Thanks >Astridhr Well, yeah, some colors fade, and some change huewhen they change chemically, but not all. Veggies often fail when exposed to atmosphere or light. Verdigris has all kinds of problems ranging from turning brown to eating the parchment through all the way. But many colors are stable ina book. Since a book is closed off from atmosphere and light we often see very good and true medieval color. That is one reason why illuminations are thought of as bright. They havn't darkened or faded much like the panel paintings, wall paintings and furniture decorations. Ranthulfr Asparlundr Randy Asplund-Faith 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:05:46 -0500 From: randyaf@provide.net (Randy & Melody Asplund-Faith) Subject: [scribes]: Celtic dots Little red dots can be seen as a warm red. They look like vermillion, and in some cases maybe minium. You will also notice a color shifting in a passage of dots. This could be an indication of being a dye color, but I have seen a lot of real Celtic pages up close and have noticed a tendency to put down color in a binder rich paint. The extra binder can make even an opaque pigment look thin and change color. The Lindisfarne Gospels look like vermillion in the book on it, but my memory of the actual book makes me suspicious that it was something else. Also, in a well made book like that, the binder ratio seemed lower than other pieces I've seen. As for the applicaton of the dots, make up a puddle in a well. dip into it. They probably took color out of a horn well. The samples you see which resemble square or rectangular marks are likely quill drawn. A downward preasure with a quill drops enough fluid to cause an opaque dot. The round and triangular dots are likely made with a brush. A semi pointed brush lays a triangle and a blunt makes a round shape. An old brush can be made blunt if you don't have one. Nip the very tip off a pointed brush and it will yield the flat round shape when applied straight down. It is the tip bending sideways which makes the triangle point. Most of the dots I see in my books are a bit irregular. Especially in the same mass. A brush well charged with color will have enough fluid to put down several dots of thick paint. Then the paint gets thinner and the shape a bit more irregular until you dip again. Ranthulfr Randy Asplund-Faith 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 http://www.provide.net/~randyaf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:58:18 EST From: Ariannawyn@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Promissories In a message dated 98-01-29 03:02:23 EST, Cystennin writes: << I was on the way home tonight and was thinking about the whole "Promisory V. Completed Scoll" thingy and had the following thought: "Is it possible that the Kingdoms where Promisorys are given out are the same Kingdoms where there is an extremely large population base and/or a large number of events? Sorry, nice theory, but that doesn't fly. The East at times has been the biggest or second biggest Kingdom population-wise, and has always had a policy of giving complete original scrolls whenever possible - even in reigns with 200+ awards over six months. However, the Middle is currently the largest Kingdom and I gather they are struggling to keep up with demand... Arianna of Wynthrope (Karen Kasper) Barony-Marche of the Debatable Lands (Pittsburgh, PA) AEthelmearc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:30:35 -0800 (PST) From: Sara Friedemann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: What to do . . . > by the scribe by putting in an "order" with the Kingdom Signet. "If > Lord Soandso gets his Kingdom A&S award, I would sure like to do We have something like that in Northshield. One of the questions on the award recommendation form is whether or not there is someone in particular who would like to either make an artifact or do the scroll for the gentle in person. I'm not sure if it's ever been taken up on, but it's a neat idea! I know someone (two people, in fact) who would be just thrilled if they had Celtic knotwork on an award--and this is something that I can then write on the recommendation. I like the idea of "personalized" scrolls. Aryanhwy - --- Lady Aryanhwy Prytydes merch Catmael Caermyrdin Falcon's Keep, Northshield, Midrealm _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V1 #19 ****************************